Hellbender
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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a conservative wants a limited government that performs specific, limited tasks and leaves individuals to their own ingenuity
So you want them to do nothing, unless of course we give them the public lands, then they can take care of those.
You can't reduce taxes to the point it interferes with living, you can reduce it to the point that sacrifice is equal.
The first feeds right into the Democrats hands, it only spreads the belief that some aren't paying their fair share.
When sacrifice is level, like it or not there's no fuel for a class separation.
This is an old concept that wasn't brought about in some big city in Illinois, but in the small towns and farms who got it from the concept of church tithes.
If one farmer was more successful than others in the same environment, he wasn't hated or despised, but when it came time to help a neighbor, knowing he had more to spare, he was expected to help more. This didn't apply to the farmer who got drunk and burned his barn down, but to those in real need, a farmer who lost his barn to a tornado or fire, illness or a crippling injury.
A sales tax doesn't nor will it ever equate to a fair share, not when it starts at the basics of survival and taps that first.
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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duko™
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 3442
Loc: east mo
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thats a pretty chitty example if you ask me.....maybe the farmer that had to eat peanut butter sammiches and ramen noodles for a year ought to look into a different occupation instead of relying on his neighbor farmer who knows what the hell he's doing and therefore had something to show for it.
Or, he should have saved enough from his good years to cover for his bad years.. not rely on someone else who was smart enough to already do so
duko
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Hellbender
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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But that ain't the way its worked is it? We're not talking about propping up a piss poor farmer.
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but to those in real need, a farmer who lost his barn to a tornado or fire, illness or a crippling injury.
I hope you didn't go to school with Liberty, he sees things that aren't there too. 
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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Liberty
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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insurance is a private market solution to making that farmer financially whole again
why is the government needed to help him rebuild a barn?
I got news for you, they don't even do that, they simply offer low interest loans
you're way off the damn reservation Tonto, I'm not even sure Hillary can reel you back into her fold
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Liberty
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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"A sales tax doesn't nor will it ever equate to a fair share, not when it starts at the basics of survival and taps that first."--Helliberal
who the hell told you life was fair?
Damn, get over it, they lied to you
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Hellbender
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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You should read your own chit Rosie.
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I got news for you, they don't even do that, they simply offer low interest loans
Its the same thing dummy!
Let me see if I can make the concept more clear, when Cro-Magnon packed up and headed to a new cave, the bigger ones carried more, because they could while still putting out the same amount of stress individually.
My idea of a civilized tax would tax equally based on avoiding it being to the level of punishment for anyone. Yours wants the lower income young people mashed down so hard financially they can never rise.
I assume, because its the way you think, that when the little girl next to you on the pew gives a nickle, so do you, cause it ain't your fault she ain't got anymore money and you want it even.
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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I was wondering how long it would take you to bring up the children
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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"I assume, because its the way you think, that when the little girl next to you on the pew gives a nickle, so do you, cause it ain't your fault she ain't got anymore money and you want it even."--Helliberal
the church doesn't reach into my pocket while holding a gun to my head either, the church deals in charity
THE GOVERNMENT IS NOT A CHARITABLE ORGANIZATION JACKASS, THEY AREN'T THERE TO MAKE UP FOR YOUR DAMN MISTAKES
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Ozark
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 4012
Loc: out in the woods
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I watched a Mike Huckabee interview on TV last night - and he explained the "fair tax", the general sales tax he'd use to replace other taxes.
Boy, that would be a good, GOOD way to do it. As an added bonus, Huckabee says there's an estimated one trillion dollars hiding overseas right now to avoid U.S. income taxes on investments. With the fair tax, much of that money should come back to the U.S.
I think the system is far too screwed up and corrupt now to ever adopt the fair tax or to elect Huckabee as President. That's too bad.
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Hellbender
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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Someone explain to me how a sales tax can be more fair than a flat income tax?
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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Liberty
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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two things HB, it is as fair as a flat income tax and it does not punish you for doing what you should be doing, going out and earning a living
America should get away from a punitive tax system
income and property taxes punish you for doing what you should do in America, have a job and own property
Why should a government punish the people through taxation?
A sales tax always offers a choice to the taxpayer that income taxes don't.
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Hellbender
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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it does not punish you for doing what you should be doing, going out and earning a living
How does a flat income tax do that?
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income and property taxes punish you for doing what you should do in America, have a job and own property
We're not talking about property taxes, stay on the subject. How does a flat income punish.
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A sales tax always offers a choice to the taxpayer that income taxes don't.
Using your mentality, which isn't easy for those of us with some sanity, a sales tax punishes you for having to eat, needing protection from the elements, and for not working close enough to home that you can walk. Is that about right Rosie?
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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what did the government do to deserve money straight off the top of your paycheck?
if you remove income tax as a possibility then you can't have a national political party that eventually turns it into a graduated tax system.
a sales tax is the only tax that would stop them from further punishing the achievers in society
the rich pay 84 percent of all the taxes in America right now, and that is because of the income tax having brackets
they can't bracket a sales tax
the only people for a continued income tax are people who have a vested interest in it remaining complicated or it remaining in place to punish achievement or what achievement really means, hard work.
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Liberty
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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your choice HB 23 percent of what you buy or 50 percent of what you make, it's a simple argument
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Hellbender
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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Quote:
if you remove income tax as a possibility then you can't have a national political party that eventually turns it into a graduated tax system.
Thats just a pipe dream, you obviously weren't around when sales taxes were less than 1%, the had plastic Mills that were used to pay the taxes that were $.001.
That argument has absolutely nothing to do with the question.
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your choice HB 23 percent of what you buy or 50 percent of what you make, it's a simple argument
Your answers continue to make no sense. You're telling me that 23% of what I and others Americans buy, will equal 50% of earnings?
Can't wait to see how you wiggle out of that statement. 
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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no need to wiggle out of it, that's the Fair Tax proposal and that other figure 50%(though somewhat low) is what Americans pay in taxes today
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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I'd wiggle into it by getting rid of the national forests, HUD, FDA, Department of Education, USDA, and the Commerce Department
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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if the government wants to provide services such as NOAA in Commerce and FWS in the Interior Department they can operate those institutions on fees, National Parks the same way
Any wilderness designations, since you say they can't be developed anyway, don't require government designation and protection
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Ozark
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 4012
Loc: out in the woods
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Quote:
Hellbender said:
sales taxes were less than 1%, they had plastic Mills that were used to pay the taxes that were $.001.
You're showing your age, Hellbender - Missouri Mills are something I hadn't thought about for a while.
The red ones were $.001, the green ones were $.002. They were so worthless the folks gave them to us kids to play with. I found some put away in a box a few months ago - but the plastic they were made of is so cheap they've curled up now.
Missouri used to have some unique ways, and I miss 'em. We used to come here on vacation to see the family, and it was hard to remember you couldn't legally make a right turn on a red light in MO after stopping. It still seems to me like MO ought to have white-on-maroon license plates.
When we moved back here 17 years ago, I was disappointed. I was kinda looking forward to having to paint my name and address on the front fender of my pickup truck.
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Hellbender
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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Doesn't the Fair Tax Proposal call for giving money back to some?
I don't care whether we pay 45% or whatever, how is that going to be replaced by 23%? It don't compute!
Whats in your 50%, is the 7-8% state and local in there? Gas taxes, phone taxes, property, personnel, vehicle license, and all those I've forgotten or don't know about?
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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Hellbender
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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Its been awhile, thats for sure. Now who would have thought that that tax would reach the 4 or 5% it is today.
I was thinking one of them was $.005 however?
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but the plastic they were made of is so cheap they've curled up now.
I don't think it was cheap, its just that plastic wasn't well developed yet.
I'm sure I missed out on some "plastics" growing up here, but I don't remember much, Naugahyde (sp?) was probably the biggest.
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
Edited by Hellbender (10/21/07 12:43 AM)
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Hellbender
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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Quote:
Any wilderness designations, since you say they can't be developed anyway
Where do you get all this crap, can't be developed for what?
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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Hellbender
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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Quote:
Missouri used to have some unique ways, and I miss 'em
Thats true, this whole area, including parts of AR, OK, and KS was kind of jumped over, too many trees and hills for civilized people to live in.
Much of Missouri is still behind in many ways, but I can't see that most of the improvements have brought any better living conditions, in fact the argument could be made they're worse. 
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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"Where do you get all this crap, can't be developed for what?"--HB
hellbender if the forests can't be thinned for a profit because they are so remote how can the wildernesses be developed?
your bullchit argument come back to bite you in the ass
BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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"It don't compute!"--Helliberal
not for some monster government you want in place to take care of you
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