Hellbender
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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Quote:
How is it that Indians could take care of the land and fashion the forests that we later walked into and we can't with more people, more technology and more knowledge?
You make it so easy. We know that because they lacked the manpower and technology, they left them alone.
We have pictures of them sitting on their assess in front of their teepee's, doing nothing. They're helping the forest do what it did for hundreds of thousands of years, grow naturally.
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
Edited by Hellbender (10/14/07 11:33 AM)
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Ozark
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 4012
Loc: out in the woods
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Quote:
Liberty said:
How is it that Indians could take care of the land and fashion the forests
Funny thing about the modern idea of Indians. One of my great-grandmas was a Cherokee, and I ain't saying they were all bad - but.
How come the people who were there at the time, the white settlers of the 1700's and 1800's, thought Indians were vermin - and now we think the "noble red man" was taking care of the land?
"Political correctness" dictates the glorification of all cultures - all except the white European/American culture, which is always portrayed as bad.
I read a lot about archaeology, and in North America they're constantly finding evidence of killing and cannibalism among Indian tribes. Findings like that are ruthlessly suppressed because of political correctness and modern sensitivity to all cultures. That's b.s., in my opinion.
I think the pre-European Indian world was mostly constant warfare, raids, and butchery between the tribes. When the whites came in and put a stop to that, the surviving Indians were left sneaking around the edges of society - unwilling to work, stealing what they could, and getting drunk.
As far as Indians "taking care" of the land - they didn't take care of chit. They were nasty, dirty, lazy, mostly interested in killing each other, and they exploited the resources of a vast continent just as hard as a few primitive people could. So much for the noble red man.
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Liberty
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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put aside your racially motivated remarks for a second, there is nothing I have said that makes an Indian any more noble than anyone else, meet a damn white settler from back then, I'm sure you'd want to spend time with their smelly ass as well.
It is historical fact, dumbender that the native people of America managed the lands around them.
Ozark, your idea that it was constant wars is also off the historical mark, there were wars no doubt, but the various tribes traded with each other, which probably led to some of the wars, no different than the wars we had over trade.
Now as to politically correct, the only difference between the natives and the settlers was a technology gap and what each held as religious beliefs and of course our ability to hand out smallpox blankets.
"As far as Indians "taking care" of the land - they didn't take care of chit."--Ozark
the historical accuracy of that comment is undeniably off the mark.
yeah they exploited the resources and they fashioned their forests so they could produce for them by using fire.
We know what a forest left to itself will do, it will become overgrown, the forests weren't overgrown in the west when we arrived. Photos prove this over and over.
well instead of arguing with a couple of idiots who think white man was the only man capable of human intellect, I think I'll continue to revel in the fact that Hellbender is nothing but a tired old liberal who thought he was a conservative all along and Ozark is a man who is incapable of understanding chit when it comes to someone of another skin tone.
I find it amusing that Ozark would argue against the use of a natural resource solely based on his prejudicial views of another culture, and there's enough irony in his views when juxtaposed with his current views on alien invaders that he would hold such a dim light on the first set of people who were overrun by border crossers.
Thin the forests jackasses, that's the argument and you two have aligned yourself with envirowhackos, politics makes strange bed fellows, well enjoy the fukking bed that you have made. 
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Liberty
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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if we can't take care of the land around us, Hellbender, how is it we've settled this country?
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Hellbender
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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Quote:
if we can't take care of the land around us, Hellbender, how is it we've settled this country?
What did we have to do?
When have we done good, when have we not? What did we do before the internet whores who think they have all the answers?
My kin started hittin' the shore in the very early 1700's, they didn't freeze to death so they must have burned a little wood. I know they had a hell of a lot of other things to worry about then thinning forest, but for some strange reason the forest are still here, over 300 years later.
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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Hellbender
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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Ah documentation of the US Forest Service, circa 1899. ( That would be the United Sioux Forest Service ), note how thin and orderly the forest is, and how hard they are at work.
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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Liberty
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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that's a painted backdrop dumbass, don't show a photographer a damn studio photo and try to pass it off as being in the field
you are such a dumbass, sad really
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Liberty
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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"I know they had a hell of a lot of other things to worry about then thinning forest, but for some strange reason the forest are still here, over 300 years later."--Hellbender
Just as the forest will still be here when we thin them, dumbass. I think you need to take a nap or something your age is showing, you are grasping for straws now that you've been proven to be arguing the liberal side of things
of course continue though because it does nothing but make me laugh 
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Hellbender
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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Wow Liberty, very impressive for a career cut and paster. I suppose I have to take your word that there are a lot of pictures of the forest and that they are just paintings. I certainly didn't know they were painted backgounds though.
If there's a way to interject decption, leave it
too the media.
What tipped you off Mr Doyle?
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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Liberty
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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post up some more pictures dumbass come on I could use another laugh
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Liberty
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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look at him try to redirect, he just embarrasses himself day in and day out and look at him look for wiggle room
dumbass believed he had the damn Rosetta Stone or something and all he had was a damn studio photo of some Indians posing for a photo in front of a painted backdrop, what a jackass
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Liberty
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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give it up old man damn there ain't anything you've got on this, you are so damn far behind me it ain't even funny, but I guess I will get to see another dumbass post soon
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Liberty
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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here I've already got my reply ready for your next 20 posts
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Hellbender
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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Quote:
How come the people who were there at the time, the white settlers of the 1700's and 1800's, thought Indians were vermin - and now we think the "noble red man" was taking care of the land?
Not necessarily true Ozark. Fact is that a lot of the very early mingling of the Cherokees, and the mixing, occurred in the Carolina's and Georgia. The area around southern Virginia and North Caroline was, and is well known for the insertion of Indian blood into white settlers families.
It wasn't until Jackson and the Democrats took office that the move to occupy Indian lands began in earnest. The Cherokees and the Creeks were above average farmers, with above average farms, and there was no shortage of whites who didn't want do the work if they could freely occupy. After the big push in 1839 it was non stop until the turn of the century. My point is that it wasn't because the Indians were considered a threat or health problem, it was simply land, nothing more, nothing less.
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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Liberty
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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Let me see what should I name Hellbender's last post...
CHANGE THE SUBJECT! CHANGE THE SUBJECT! I'M GETTING MY ASS HANDED TO ME! CHANGE THE SUBJECT!
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Hellbender
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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WAS THE 1910 FIRE THE LARGEST?
Evergreen Magazine, Winter Edition 1994-1995
Parts from The Big Blowup
No one can say for certain that the 1910 fire was the largest forest fire ever, but if size alone is the measure, it was indeed the largest forest fire in U.S. history. Other U.S. fires - including some listed below - were more deadly, but none moved as swiftly or as savagely over such a vast uncharted expanse as did the 1910 fire.
Damn, can you believe there are still trees to burn. Listening to our resident expert, Lib, you wouldn't think there were any trees left after 100 years of major fires.
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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Liberty
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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hey Hellbender, 2.86 million acres burned up in 1910 in Idaho and Montana, of course your source is 12 years old so it can't be blamed for not knowing what happened in 2007, You can though.
care to know how much burned up this year in Idaho and Montana? 2.62 million acres
Also, there are areas of the 1910 fires that never regrew trees, some of the areas are grasslands, I'm kind of well versed in the 1910 fires, you'd better pick a subject you know more about like envirowhackism or something
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Liberty
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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of course I always love it when you reference a publication that states thinning the forests is desperately needed
from Evergreen Magazine
"Our message is simple and straightforward: the world should be using more wood, not less."
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Ozark
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 4012
Loc: out in the woods
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I dunno what you guys are talking about.
I know from experience that brushy woods in time become mature forests, with the big trees shading out the understory. In the Ozarks, I'd guess that process takes 50 years or so.
Our hunting land in Douglas County was logged 15 years ago. Yes, it would make a helluva fire now - but it holds lots of deer. There are lots of brushy thickets there I can hardly get through.
Our neighbor there just had his place logged out. Before that it was "mature forest" with big trees and no underbrush. That's pretty, but it holds few deer or other wildlife.
The first white explorer to reach the Springfield area, a guy named Schoolcroft, described the Ozarks as mature pine forests. He said a man could ride a horse easily between the trees, and there was so little underbrush he could see a long ways ahead. Obviously, the hardwoods we have today spread from the creek bottoms after the pines were logged out.
Growing a mature forest takes time, and I sure doubt the Indians "taking care of the forests" had anything to do with it. Just how many hours a day did you figure those bucks and squaws spent pulling weeds in the woods, anyway?
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Liberty
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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Ozark you're almost on Hellbender's level, just a couple more steps down, pulling weeds??? native americans used understory fires to clear out the forests, but then again you make your mistakes on purpose.
Ozark if you want to hunt quail forever, make sure you always have a young thick forest, but if you want year round habitat for deer and turkey, you'll need mature forests with open spaces. Deer will also be found around thickets, but a thick forest is not where you will find deer and turkey year round.
For a guy who hunts, you should know this rather than making the statement you made above.
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Ozark
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 4012
Loc: out in the woods
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Quote:
Liberty said:
Deer will also be found around thickets, but a thick forest is not where you will find deer and turkey year round.
For a guy who hunts, you should know this rather than making the statement you made above.
You need a combination of both, which is what we've got. Deer bed down in the thickets, especially on ridge tops where anything approaching them has to come uphill. They pass through "mature forests" to get to glades, acorn trees, and bedding areas - but they don't stay there.
The "thickets" we have are mostly multiflora roses and blackberries. The roses are an invasive plant, I don't know if the blackberries are native or not. Both of them will eventually get shaded out as the trees grow and the understory will become open again.
I'd love to set the place on fire and thin it out a bit, as you claim the Indians did - but that's illegal. Funny thing, Conservation area land is next door to us and they burn it off every few years. I guess it ain't illegal if the government does it.
One thing for sure - none of us will ever see the Ozarks in the natural pre-settler condition of big pine forests. Every inch of this country has been changed by man's activities.
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Liberty
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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every inch of the American West is being changed by man's inactivity
then again restoration forestry is an idea no one seems to have a clue about
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Hellbender
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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Quote:
native americans used understory fires to clear out the forests,
And whats your source for that Chief Rosie?
The Indians in this area did set fires, but not for any restoration BS, but to kill ticks.
Quote:
every inch of the American West is being changed by man's inactivity
No, every inch of the American West is being changed by man's activity, and giving the land to some greedy county politicians looking for votes will only speed the process.
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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don't you have some more fake photos to post up?
I love the greedy language you use is that straight from Sorros
it's called local control dumbass, conservatives are for that kind of thing, but then again you are a liberal and wouldn't know that
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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"And whats your source for that Chief Rosie?"--Hellbender
uhhm, Hellbender I've posted up several sources that speak to this, of course you never read any of them while you were frantically searching for a fake photo of Indians in front of a painting
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