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Liberty
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Hellbender
      #120214 - 10/11/07 07:38 PM

this opinion piece kind of flies in the face of your idea of wilderness, perhaps you should reconsider your idea before Carole King gets her way with shutting off a vast area of the northern Rockies with her bill that Congress will be taking up in the next few weeks.

from SOS forests

Wilderness Designation Leads To Catastrophic Megafires
October 11th, 2007

Wilderness designation is not ?protection.? Wilderness designation is guaranteed destruction.

When Congress declares a parcel of land to be official Wilderness, invariably that land is consumed in a megafire shortly thereafter. Overlay a map of the megafires of the last 20 years on a map of our National Wilderness Areas. You will see how close they line up. Very few Wilderness Areas have escaped catastrophic, 100 percent mortality, ?stand replacement? fires.

The forests, wildlife, scenic beauty, water quality, and general ambiance of our Wilderness Areas, prior to designation, has been turned into wastelands, devoid of trees, wildlife, beauty, and ambiance.

Charred and rotting snags dot the landscape like ugly pins in a pincushion, one that stretches as far as the eye can see in every direction. The ground is blackened, with drifts of choking ash. Here and there a sprig of brush struggles in the alkali. The silence is complete and deathly, because there are no birds chirping, no squirrels chattering, no mice scurrying, no deer leaping, no elk crashing.

Wastelands. Scorched earth. Mega-death zones. No Man?s Land. Nuked Land. Chernobylized.

That?s what wilderness designation means.

The landscapes so designated are not ?wildernesses? in any rational, informed, historically-accurate context. In every case, our Wilderness Areas were in fact populated with resident human beings over the past 10,000 years or more. They are no more wilderness than Scranton, Birmingham, or the ironically named Indianapolis.

And everybody knows this! Everybody knows there were Indians.

Apparently, many have not yet accepted that Indians, like human beings everywhere in all the Ages of Man, had enormous impact and influence over the vegetation, wildlife, beauty, water, and general ambiance of the entire landscape, excluding only the highest peaks scalable only with modern climbing tools. Those are the facts, however.

So-called Roadless Areas are in fact roaded, and have been roaded for thousands of years. Extensive foot-road networks were woven across every watershed in the America?s long before Columbus landed. The land has been occupied and used by resident human beings who produced diverse goods and traded them via far-reaching trade routes.

But for some reason we choose to ignore what we know, and instead paint a fairy tale mythos at total odds with the facts!

Somehow the Indians had zero impact, because either they didn?t exist, or else they were sub-human and must have flitted from bush to bush like butterflies, doing no ?trammmeling? and leaving ?no imprint of man.? That?s a racist and dehumanizing mindset, to be truthful. It smacks of conquest and dismissal of the vanquished to the dustbin of history.

Somehow Mother Nature, in all her pagan glory, really steered the ship. That?s what the myth says. The mythologizers want you to worship Mother Nature.

Mother Nature has not been steering the ship because she does not exist. She is a false god, a painted idol, and not real. Nature, or Life, is not a sentient being and is not fragile, having persevered for more than a billion years on this planet.

Come what may, the rat, the cockroach, and the pond scum will survive.

Our job is to be good stewards of our landscapes. That is the legacy left to us by the First Residents. It is our birthright to care for the land, and indeed it is our birth-responsibility.

Abandoning millions of acres of priceless, heritage forests to catastrophic incineration and extinction is not good stewardship. It violates the fundamental core of our role as human beings.

The new wilderness proposals in Congress are more than wrong-headed, they are destructive of our heritage, legacy, and of our birthrights and responsibilities, which are owed to our ancestors, to each other, to our children?s children, and to our planet.
end


whoever this guy is, he seems to be speaking my language

we are either a part of our environment and therefore charged to use it or we came here on alien ships and should return home, it's just that simple


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Hellbender
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Re: Hellbender [Re: Liberty]
      #120220 - 10/11/07 08:36 PM

Quote:

The landscapes so designated are not ?wildernesses? in any rational, informed, historically-accurate context. In every case, our Wilderness Areas were in fact populated with resident human beings over the past 10,000 years or more. They are no more wilderness than Scranton, Birmingham, or the ironically named Indianapolis.

And everybody knows this! Everybody knows there were Indians.





Well she obviously has about as much knowledge and attention span as you do.
You can still put a tepee up in the wilderness, you just can't drive into it, instead you have to take a horse, if you must get there on your ass, kind of like a a a ah ah an Indian?

Given the fact they are small areas overall and planted in the thickest forested areas, I'm sure they are susceptible, just like when the Indians were managing the forest, or did they?
Sorry sonny, no points.

Quote:

They are no more wilderness than Scranton, Birmingham, or the ironically named Indianapolis




She does have a knowledge of "Wilderness" that rivals yours, Whats her take on the Elk Beaver situation in Yellowstone.

--------------------
A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.


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Re: Hellbender [Re: Hellbender]
      #120262 - 10/12/07 12:44 AM

and here's another one

"A Natural Woman
October 8th, 2007

The inimitable Rocky Barker of the Idaho Statesman recently posted on his blog (here) a warning alarm about the new Wilderness Bill crawling around the halls of Congress:

Carole King and supporters finally get House hearing on ambitious wilderness bill

By Rocky Barker on Fri, 10/05/2007

Carole King and her patient, hard-working band of wilderness advocates finally have a hearing for the most ambitious wilderness bill since the Alaska Lands Act.

The U.S. House of Representatives Natural Resources Committee subcommittee on National Parks, Forests and Public Lands will hold a hearing October 18 on the Northern Rockies Ecosystem Protection Act. The bill, sponsored by New York Democrat Rep. Carolyn Maloney (D-NY) and Connecticut Republican Christopher Shays would designate as wilderness nearly 7 million acres in Montana, 9.5 million acres in Idaho, 5 million acres in Wyoming, 750,000 acres in eastern Oregon, and 500,000 acres in eastern Washington.

Another three million acres in Yellowstone, Glacier and Grand Teton National Parks also would become wilderness, where no logging, road-building, motorized use, and new oil and gas drilling or new mining could take place. King, the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame singer-songwriter, has repeatedly gone door to door, office to office in Congress to collect 116 sponsors for the bill, which would designate all of the inventoried roadless areas in the Northern Rockies as wilderness, and authorize a land restoration program that would create thousands of jobs.

Carole King, of course, is the famous songstress who wrote the song (You Make Me Feel) Like A Natural Woman, among others. Evidently she now also needs massive wilderness set-asides, because whatever she was singing about in that song isn?t working for her anymore. She?s lost that natural woman feeling, and desires to commandeer half the West and burn to the ground to get it back.

Hollywood do-gooder morons do not do good; instead they do irreparable damage. However, Congress being what it is, gushed all over Ms. King and her soulful tunes about nature and her natural feelings. Now the rest of us have to somehow prevent the horrors of catastrophic megafire that Ms. King, in her blissful Tinsel Town ignorance, wishes to inflict upon real Americans.

More from Rocky:

So now the West?s most devout preservationists finally get their chance in Congress with the first hearing on the bill in more than a decade. House Speaker, Nancy Pelosi is a personal friend of King?s. The long-time Idaho resident has worked hard to get Democrats elected and now she gets her chance.

So Ms. King is not only a wealthy entertainer, she is also a mover and shaker in Congress. What?s more, she?s a ?resident? of Idaho. I am just guessing that we?re talking about Sun Valley, not Yellow Pine. In any case, that means she may possibly have noticed the 1,250 square mile forest fire that denuded the Idaho Batholith this summer. Her lovely wilderness is now a wasteland of scorched earth about to slide into the streams and rivers in the biggest erosion event in Idaho since the Bretz Floods.

If she did notice, or even if she didn?t, that?s the kind of holocaust that Ms. King?s Wilderness Bill will perpetrate.

A better plan, and one that almost the entire country could get behind, is to declare the Los Angeles Basin a Wilderness Area, and burn it to the ground. Bye-bye Hollywood, Beverly Hills, Encino, Industrial City, Compton, Glendale, and all those other affronts to Mother Nature. Ms. King could even write a song about it. She could call it I Hate L.A.

The good people of Idaho should have a chat with their fellow resident, and steer her towards incinerating Hollywood instead of Idaho, because the former is already a wasteland and truly needs a thorough cleansing via eco-health administering fire.

Idaho and the rest of the real (non-illusionary) West have had enough of that kind of thing, thank you very much, Carole."

but then again I am sure Hellbender has no problem with designating all of the northern rockies as wilderness, since his ass lives in Missouri


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Re: Hellbender [Re: Liberty]
      #120263 - 10/12/07 12:47 AM

and since the jackass never got the message before, here's an oldy but goody

"The Death of Neighborliness
October 2nd, 2007

We are bombarded every day with anti-humanity propaganda, in newspapers, TV, our schools, books, magazines, movies, you name it. The theme that Man Is Bad runs 24/7 in bulk.

We have screwed up Nature, the land, the water, and even the climate. People have wrecked the planet. There are too many people. We need to reduce our population, reduce the human footprint, or else the whole planetary ecosystem will collapse and we?ll all die, and everything will go extinct, except for rats and cockroaches, of course.

That last part makes it scientific. The Man Is Bad theme is big in Science. The Consensus of Scientists is that Man Is A Mistake. School teachers agree. Most school teachers deal with a crowd of little people every day. It?s obvious that there are too many of them. Everybody agrees, with a few exceptions, like the Pope, (what a maroon!).

The US Forest Service, the Nature Conservancy, the Wilderness Society, and many politicians, pundits, and plain folks are convinced that our national forest fire crisis is the fault of the neighbors, the human beings that reside on rural land within 30 miles of the Federal Estate. The reason our fire suppression costs are so large, so they say, is that the Feds are spending all the money protecting the neighbors.

Their solution? Why, ban all homes within 30 miles of USFS or BLM land. No homes, nothing to protect, no need for fire suppression, big cost savings.

The Feds have already abandoned our public lands to ?natural? catastrophic megafires. They can?t stop firestorms at the National Forest borders. Now, to ?fix? the problem, they wish to burn out the neighbors, too.

If No Touch, Let It Burn, Watch It Rot is a wonderful ecosystemic, heath-giving, natural way to manage public forests and ranges, then it must be good for private land as well, and maybe even more so.

Those are their stated excuses, anyway. As ridiculous and illogical as they are, the excuses mask the deeper motivation. The Environmental Movement and their government lackeys wish to drive Humanity off the land. Their unneighborliness is the core to their apple.

Humanity, however, is of the land. People have always lived on the land, since we evolved 150,000 years ago, or since Adam and Eve whenever, it doesn?t matter. People have always lived in largely un-built environments.

Only very recently have a large number of humans lived in synthetic environments of concrete, steel, asphalt, and glass, with artificial lighting, air, water, and food. Jamming scads of humans into plastic fantastic artificial environments is a brand new experiment.

The new social experiment strives for a dystopic vision of a de-humanized planet, except for dense artificial bubbles filled with sardine people, pock-marked here and there on the landscape, while Mother Nature operates with abandonment outside the walls of the cities.

In many ways that experiment is failing, and not the least of which is the Death of Neighborliness. Urbanites are adamant in their self-delusions and wish to impose their plastic abstractions on the rest of the planet. That means de-humanizing as much of the land as they can.

It also means a profound disregard for their fellow human beings. De-humanization, or pan-ethnic cleansing of the landscape, is the ultimate in unneighborliness.

In Oregon we are engaged in yet another land use planning battle, Measure 49 (yet another property rights grab). The war has been going on here for 30 years or more. Oregon ?leads? the Nation in land use planning. The issue is complex, but if you scratch away the crust, inside you will find the struggle is between people who wish to live on the land, and those who wish to take that right away from them.

To live on the land, to be resident in a non-urban setting, is the natural, historical state of the human species. We are highly evolved as a species, no doubt, and have developed the means to be excellent land stewards. Yes we have. Humanity has not wrecked the planet. We know how to be good stewards, and have been good stewards in many places.

Resident stewardship in a rural setting means to care for one?s land, but also to be a part of a larger landscape which also requires care, protection, and maintenance.

Resident stewardship is good for the land, good for the individual, good for society, and good for our species.

Property rights are human rights. Tenure (title) and tenancy (living on your land) are natural human rights. Humans are territorial by instinct. We need our space. We need to have exclusive control over our home territories: where we sleep at night, where we keep our stuff, where we gather and hunt our food, where we take shelter from the storm. Those are deep animal instincts that we cannot violate without social discord, strife, and upheaval.

Driving your neighbors from their homes, burning them out, or imposing insufferable regulations upon them, are not the right ways to treat your neighbor. A wise man once said that best course of action, for various reasons, would be to Love Thy Neighbor. Cleansing rural America of humanity is not a loving action. It is a hate-filled action, motivated by anti-humanity fear and loathing.

Our philosophically bankrupt Post Modern Age has lost the knack of neighborliness. We still have proximity; we didn?t lose that. Whatever is proximate to USFS land is in the Whooie, the Wildland-Urban Interface (WUI) and therefore subject to draconian anti-home laws and megafires.

We get it that close to the Feds means close to disaster. We understand nearness or proximity to a huge hazard.

What we don?t get anymore is neighborliness. The Big Landowners (in particular) don?t know how to Love Thy Neighbor. It?s easier for the USFS and the Environmental Movement to hate the individuals who reside in proximity. It?s cheaper to burn out the residents than to put out the fires before they cross the line. It?s easier to steal the neighbors? human rights rights to tenure and tenancy. That fits their program of takeover.

The current trend of unneighborliness is rampant, epidemic, irrupting everywhere, globally. It is sickening, evil, and destructive. I have called it a war, and it is, because it is a takeover of territory, by force, by an organized militia. But it is also symptomatic of a decline in our very humanity, our quality of being humane.

De-humanizing the landscape does not solve the problem; it is the problem."


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Re: Hellbender [Re: Liberty]
      #120264 - 10/12/07 12:49 AM

and another one since you have no brain

"Eliminating Forests
September 29th, 2007

The proposition is oft stated that catastrophic fires are good for our forests. The reasons given are that fire is ?natural? and inevitable, that the forest trees and plants are adapted to fire, and even ?dependent? on fire, and that fire ?rejuvenates? the forest.

That proposition lacks nuance. No two fires are alike. Fire A is not Fire B. No two forests are alike, either. Conditions vary, phenomena vary, and effects vary. The outcomes of catastrophic fire are not random, however, although they do have some elements of chaos.

Chaos is a pre-deterministic pattern disruption. That is, the outcomes depend on initial conditions.

Given the initial conditions of a fuel-laden, thicket-type forest, catastrophic fire has a tendency to largely eliminate that forest from the landscape, and replace it with a different ecosystem. The new ecosystem develops new patterns, determined by slope, soil, exposure, etc., but almost invariably the new ecosystem does not have trees.

Modern catastrophic forest fires kill all the trees. Young and old-growth trees alike succumb in the intense heat. Modern fires also sear away the shrub and herbaceous layers, and leave a carpet of ash and charcoal, with patches of exposed mineral soil. No living biomass remains above ground.

Occasional patches of green trees remain after catastrophic fires, sometimes in deep canyons and sometimes on ridge tops. Forest fires create their own cyclonic winds, and chaotic burn-skips can and do occur in odd patterns. Often the ?surviving? trees die from beetle attack and fungal diseases soon after the fire, such infestations brought about by the massive sudden mortality in the adjacent burned zones.

Modern catastrophic forest fires do not leave a ?mosaic? of ?patches?. Modern fires are more like continuous, vast inkblots or spreading rashes that consume all the vegetation in amoeba-like patterns with lobes, bulges, and arms.

Furthermore, if unburned patches remain inside fire perimeters, it is the practice to have fire crews burn them out, deliberately, as part of mop-up operations. This is typically done as a safety measure in early season fires to prevent flare-ups later on in the summer. But the upshot is that any ?mosaic tiles? of a few green spots inside the amoeba-like fire perimeter are eliminated by fire crews before the beetles and fungus can get to them.

New forests do not arise across the vast, 100-percent-mortality burns. Instead grasses and weedy annuals invade. Sprouting shrubs, whose root systems were insulated deep in the soil, struggle for growing space, sunlight, and especially soil moisture with the grasses and weeds.

Few conifers stump-sprout, and none of our inland forest species do. Pines, firs, and spruces propagate by seed. Modern catastrophic fires burn so severely that soils are baked and seed banks are destroyed. Any lucky conifer seeds that survive and subsequently germinate must compete with grasses, weeds, and well-rooted shrubs. And the few conifers that make it to 15-50 years-of-age will be incinerated in the next catastrophic fire, which will likely be classed as a brush fire, not a forest fire.

Take Mann Gulch, for example. In 1949 a forested canyon on the Missouri River 20 miles north of Helena burned in the fire that also killed 13 firefighters. In his famous book about the Mann Gulch Fire, Young Men And Fire, author Norman Maclean doesn?t discuss the vegetation much. There is this passage, however:

In the formal description of the Report of Board of Review:? At the point of origin of the fire the fuel type consisted of a dense stand of six- to eight-inch Douglas fir and some ponderosa pine on the lateral ridges.?

But it was a different type of fuel on the north side, where the crew was now on its way to the river. ?At the point of disaster the tree cover consisted of stringers of scattered young ponderosa pine trees with occasional overmature ponderosa pine trees. The ground cover or understory which predominated was bunch grass with some cheat grass.? Essentially the north side of Mann Gulch was rocky and steep with a lot of grass and brush and only a scattering of trees. The south side was densely timbered.

Maclean?s photos bear out his descriptions of Mann Gulch. Some were agency photos taken before the Mann Gulch Fire, some immediately after, and some twenty years later. The post-fire photos clearly show pine trees killed by the fire. The pictures from 1969 show no living trees. Maclean had this to say after he visited the site in the 1980?s:

Now, almost forty years later, small trees have just started to grow along the bottoms of dry finger gulches on the hillside in Mann Gulch, where moisture from rain and snow are retained underground. Since even now these little evergreens are only six to eight inches high, the grass has to be parted to find them?

This summer, 58 years later, Mann Gulch burned again (see here). Whatever tiny trees had survived from the 1980?s were fried. What was once forested is now de-treed permanently. The canyon adjacent to Mann Gulch, Meriwether Canyon, was not burned in 1949 but did burn this summer. The dense thicket of ponderosa pine and Douglas-fir cooked completely, as if Meriwether Canyon had been a giant pottery kiln.

Meriwether Canyon will not recover to be forest again, any more than Mann Gulch did. Nor will the areas burned this summer along the Rocky Mountain Front. Nor will the 1,200 square mile region of the Idaho Batholith roasted this summer by catastrophic forest fires. Nor will the 500,000 acre Biscuit Burn in Southwest Oregon. Nor will the bulk of the former Kaibab ponderosa pine forest. Nor will the Deschutes, Okanogan, Las Padres, or a dozen other National Forests visited by megafires in recent years.

Those forests have been eliminated and replaced by fire-type brush. The idea that our forests arose from catastrophic ?stand-replacing? fires is not true. They didn?t arise in that manner, certainly not the forests with (or that had) old-growth trees in them. Old-growth trees can be found across the entire West. Forests with old trees didn?t arise from catastrophic 100-percent-mortality fires. They couldn?t have. The evidence of Mann Gulch and other modern burns is plain to see.

Despite the obvious and clear evidence, the old myths persist. Many people feel a desperate need to perpetuate fanciful tales of forest development based on doofy pseudo-ecology. We offer, for example, this piece of pro-fire cheerleading replete with happy talk that lacks scientific merit (here).

Life After Meriwether

By LARRY KLINE, Helena Independent Record Staff Writer - 08/19/07

? Some areas now are home to black trunks standing in a moonscape of ash and gaping root holes, their heat-deformed branches curled to the sky. The soil is topped with dead ashes. Streaks and circles of white are all that remain of logs or bushes incinerated by the heat.

But in some places just 50 yards separate these apocalyptic scenes from living trees and flowering brush. The soil is dark and able to support new life. Living roots still can be found beneath black stubs of burnt scrub grass.

Some spots already are home to fresh green shoots.

This mosaic is exactly what forest managers expect after this sort of fire.

Fuel buildups in high elevations mean fires there, though infrequent, typically replace whole stands of Douglas fir.

?It?s pretty impressive how much stand replacement occurred with that fire,? Helena National Forest ecologist Lois Olsen said. She?s working on the incident management team, and recently flew over the burned areas.

?There are large patches that don?t have any living trees in them right now,? she said. Other areas are still green, she added.

?I don?t know that this is anything that you would consider abnormal,? Olsen said.

Much of the interior of the area is dominated by Douglas fir, with ponderosa pine taking over in the lower elevations at the edge of the wilderness.

Under what forest managers call a ?natural fire regime,? frequent, variable-intensity burns will leave open stands of mature ponderosa pine. The fires leave gaps in stands of Douglas fir.

The forest was ponderosa pine, open and park-like and maintained by frequent, regular, seasonal anthropogenic fire. After the Indian residents were murdered or moved, Douglas-fir invaded, as well as a thicket of young ponderosas.

The reporter had that backwards. He said the pine was ?taking over? in the lower elevations. In fact, the pine is (was) dying out, being replaced by Douglas-fir in the absence of tending, human-set fire. The gosh darn twaddle about ?natural fire regimes? is historically, ecologically, and factually inaccurate, and so egregiously so that one hopes someone else would please hit that moron with a shovel.

First the journalist (there?s a thinly-veiled insult) said fires typically replace whole stands, then he said they leave open stands of ponderosa pine. Which is it? Can?t be both. We get cognitive dissonance syndrome from reading jabber like that. It causes us to pick up our shovel and take some practice swings.

The reporter called the burn a ?mosaic,? but the USFS ecologist called the 100-percent-mortality area ?pretty impressive? and referred to the burn as ?stand replacement?. We don?t think the reporter had a freaking clue, however, so we cannot rely on his quoting of anybody and have never spoken to Lois Olsen ourselves. We do believe the reporter, however, when he said he witnessed grass and weeds sprouting. That is reasonable. He did not and will not see any trees growing there again though, of that we are sure.

Meriwether Canyon has been roasted and its forest eliminated. Go take a look, without a journalist to interpret things for you. Catastrophic fires in thicket-type forests eliminate forests and replace them with something else.

Our forests are being extincted, not rejuvenated. That?s the bottom line and the reality of the situation."

I now know why you left the west, though, you couldn't hack it.


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Liberty
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Re: Hellbender [Re: Liberty]
      #120266 - 10/12/07 01:20 AM

and from another source, Hellbender, you really should read this, being that you are an idiot and all...

from the Protecting Communities and Saving Our Forests: Solving the Wildfire Crisis Through Restoration Forestry
by Thomas M. Bonnicksen Ph.D. (by the way you can download the book for free)

"How Did It Get So Bad?

It has taken a combination of several factors to create the
dangerous, unnatural conditions that now dominate California?s forests. Misinformation and widely held misconceptions about forests have played a role, as have well-intended policies that had unintended consequences.

The myth of the pristine forest

The vision of pristine, untouched presettlement forests may be alluring, but in reality, forests have been managed
for at least 12,000 years. The California forests European explorers discovered in the 1800s were neither pristine nor untouched.

They were, however, beautiful and far more open and diverse than today?s forests.
The vision of pristine forests many people hold ? babbling brooks flowing through majestic tall trees and grassy
meadows with deer and other wildlife in abundance ? are typically images of carefully managed forests. Natural
forests to be sure, but forests nonetheless shaped by native people and other influences.

Other mythical pristine forests ? dark, mysterious places with huge trees, mosscovered logs under foot and chattering wildlife in tree canopies high overhead ? are fleeting
glimpses of reality at best. Some such patches historically
dotted the land much like today?s old-growth forests do, but they were relatively few and far from permanent. Fires may have passed by them for a while, but eventually they burned. Forests are dynamic ? once they reach maturity, their next step is to become young again, usually at the hand of a fire.

Fire has played a significant role in developing California?s forests for thousands of years. However, because California?s historic forests were so different from the dense forests we see today, fires burned differently then.

Fire versus FIRE
The fires that were a natural part of California?s historic landscape cleared the forest floor of debris and small
trees. The difference between the fires that historically shaped California?s forests and the blazes that ravage
thousands of acres at a time today is mostly a matter of degrees.
Historically, forest fires were generally low-intensity affairs. Fires might cover large areas, but flames stayed close to the ground with relatively modest temperatures.

PAY PARTICULAR CLOSE ATTENTION HERE HELLBENDER AND OTHER IDIOTS

Today?s infernos sometimes tower above the ground and reach 3,000?F, hot enough to melt metal. They can travel 20 miles in a day and sterilize soils.

In the low to moderate-intensity fires that historically dominated the interior West, animals could generally avoid
the immediate effect of flames.

The high-intensity blazes that have become more common recently have a greater impact on wildlife. It?s harder
to get away. Fish die in boiling streams. While fire is a natural part of most American forests, catastrophic blazes
were rare historically. For centuries, fire shaped California?s forestland in a benign cycle ? frequent low-intensity fires cleared the understory and kept
the forest open, which guarded against mega fires. Today?s high-intensity crown fires, however, often leave in
their wake devastated moonscapes of dead trees and baked, eroding soils."

YOU CAN READ THE REST HERE http://www.calforestfoundation.org/pdf/Saving_Forest_Book.pdf


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Liberty
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Re: Hellbender [Re: Liberty]
      #120267 - 10/12/07 01:22 AM

let's see you argue all that, of course you will pick and choose and take things out of context rather than realize you're an ignorant jackass who when he lived in the west had no damn clue what was happening around him and since you have moved from the west you refuse to realize the chit got much worse in the last few years

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Re: Hellbender [Re: Liberty]
      #120268 - 10/12/07 01:42 AM

just drive home a point I've been making all along and it further proves Hellbender is nothing more than a liberal pawning himself off as a conservative

"Fuel loads, weather conditions and landscape topography all influence fire behavior. For instance, fire usually moves
faster uphill. During the 2003 Southern California firestorm, however, fuel loads were so extreme that firefighters reported witnessing fires race downhill
as fast they moved uphill.

PAY SPECIAL ATTENTION HERE HELLBENDER IF WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING IS STUPID THEN EVERYONE IN THE WEST WHO ISN'T A MEMBER OF SOME WHACKO ENVIRO GROUP IS JUST AS STUPID

Unlike weather and topography, we can control fuel loads. We can reduce fuel loads and improve overall forest health.
Much like a master gardener will prune roses, fight aphids and slugs, and pull weeds, foresters can remove excess fuels
and create conditions that benefit trees and wildlife.
We are still feeling the effects of aggressive 20th century fire suppression. Deliberately set fires, or ?prescribed
burns,? can be an effective forest management
tool, but many public forests that surround communities are
too dangerous and overgrown with trees and debris to safely reintroduce fire without first harvesting some trees to
reduce fuel loads.
However, public sentiment toward forest management has swung toward preservation ? leave the forest alone, keep it exactly like it is and let nature take its course. More often than not, efforts to manage California?s forests
and reduce fuel loads are blocked by appeals and lawsuits ? despite the fact that humans have allowed unnatural
fuel loads to accumulate. The forests we would leave to nature are not natural, so the fires that burn them are not
natural either.
Such ?hands-off? attitudes, often inspired by the myth of the pristine forest, lead to inaction that fosters the
kind of catastrophic fire that can erase forests from the landscape for centuries. While court cases drag on, trees keep growing and forests get more crowded. Tinderbox conditions are spreading throughout California?s forests.
By doing nothing in our forests, we are doing something ? creating conditions that are far more conducive to unnatural, devastating crown fires than natural
low-level surface flames."

as usual, I provide evidence and you provide nothing but ignorance


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Re: Hellbender [Re: Liberty]
      #120324 - 10/12/07 12:30 PM

come on Hellbender post up some sort of defense, there are literally thousands of whack lib organizations that think exactly like you and have already formulated your bullchit argument for you, just go copy and paste, hell go get some crap from the forest service they love arguing that the best thing for the forests is that they are incinerated in gigantic firestorms

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Re: Hellbender [Re: Liberty]
      #120327 - 10/12/07 12:39 PM

Idiot

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Re: Hellbender [Re: Hellbender]
      #120343 - 10/12/07 01:33 PM

I knew you would have nothing, considering you've had nothing all along.

damn liberal


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Re: Hellbender [Re: Liberty]
      #120352 - 10/12/07 02:00 PM

No I'm not going to spend a lot time cutting and pasting bullchit. The fact that you don't have the capacity to respond, without pasting the blog of some tree hugging liberal, doesn't mean I'm going to lower myself to your mentality.

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Re: Hellbender [Re: Hellbender]
      #120355 - 10/12/07 02:12 PM

"tree hugging liberal"--Hellbender

uhh you apparently can't read. The dude wants the trees cut, the forests thinned rather than watching them be erased forever by catastrophic fire

he advocates private ownership and local control

I'm sorry but those aren't liberal stances, jackass


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Re: Hellbender [Re: Liberty]
      #120356 - 10/12/07 02:13 PM

"No I'm not going to spend a lot time cutting and pasting bullchit."--Hellbender

that's exactly what it would be if you were to cut and paste the volumes of envirowhacko crap that agrees with you


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Re: Hellbender [Re: Liberty]
      #120383 - 10/12/07 04:47 PM

Quote:

uhh you apparently can't read.




I quit reading your cut and paste when Elk started chasing Beavers out of Yellowstone, and you said everyone should ignore that, but accept everything else.

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Re: Hellbender [Re: Hellbender]
      #120406 - 10/12/07 07:53 PM

that's funny I only read your crap so I can laugh at a man who says he's conservative and is a liberal and says he knows about the forest but clearly lived in a desert

still doesn't change the facts you are too afraid to confront


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Re: Hellbender [Re: Liberty]
      #120412 - 10/12/07 08:34 PM

Quote:

as to your centrist's view, a centrist would realize that the forest service can't take care of the land it has, in that case a centrist would realize that some of that land needs new owners.

You are no centrist and simply support the liberal view





Lib if anyone leans liberal its you. How else would think that anyone can control and groom millions of acres of trees not created by man, and not subject to mans laws.
You just try to distract with your cut and paste.
Hillbilly's right, you're a Firestorm of bullchit. We need to give you to the county that you have so much faith in, maybe they can cure you.

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Re: Hellbender [Re: Hellbender]
      #120413 - 10/12/07 08:42 PM

Quote:

Today?s infernos sometimes tower above the ground and reach 3,000?F, hot enough to melt metal.
"That happens to be true"




So who measured these temps Liberty?
Hillbilly, I can't agree with the Firestorm label, given the burning temperature we're dealing with here I think "Rosie" might be more appropriate.

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Re: Hellbender [Re: Hellbender]
      #120424 - 10/13/07 12:20 AM

measuring the temperature of a fire isn't hard jackass, if you knew anything about forest fires you'd know that the fire behavior people involved on the incident management team are using thermal imaging to determine where the hottest spots in the fire are.

as to your continued labeling me a liberal

that's completely asinine as I am for private ownership and you want to prolong the failed bureaucracy anyone who honestly reads this knows this, but I don't suspect many of you know your ass from a hole in the ground, then again you are in the Ozarks


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Re: Hellbender [Re: Liberty]
      #120433 - 10/13/07 02:21 AM

Forestry for Dummies
By Alan Caruba
www.MichNews.com
Jan 12, 2005

Recently, managers of the nation?s 155 national forests were granted more discretion to approve logging and other commercial projects without the lengthy environmental reviews previously required by the 1976 National Forest Management Act. To most people that might not qualify as front page news, but it should be.

The nation was saddled with all manner of environmental legislation during the 1970s and part of the payback has been literally catastrophic for many of the nation?s forests. There has also been a hidden cost for anyone using any kind of product involving or derived from wood.

The new rules brought the usual Greens screaming to anyone who would listen that, ?the president?s forest regulations are an early Christmas gift to the timber industry masquerading as a streamlining measure. So said Rodger Schlickeisen, president of Defenders of Wildlife. Mike Anderson of The Wilderness Society lamented that ?wildlife safeguards? would suffer. They are both not only wrong, but betray (1) the Green?s opposition to any kind of industry that serves public needs and (2) an indifference to the truth about what will really serve wildlife in those forests. The goal of environmental organizations is to insure that no humans ever use our forests for any reason.

George E. Gruell is a wildlife biologist and the author of ?Fire in Sierra Nevada Forests.? In July, in a commentary published in the Reno Gazette-Journal, Gruel wrote, ?With embers smoldering around Carson City, it?s a good time to look at what fuels today?s devastating fires and perhaps learn from history how to make our forests and communities safer.?

?Historically,? wrote Gruell, ?Sierra Nevada forests were less dense and more resistant to catastrophic fire,? noted the difference of just a hundred years. ?What we have today is an unnatural accumulation of forest fuels.? Why? Because Greens have conspired to make it illegal, difficult, and unprofitable to harvest timber from our national forests, although the law that established them made provision for that.

The Greens interference resulted in ?an unnatural accumulation of forest fuels.? Note the word ?unnatural.? Gruell wrote that, ?Nevada?s forests have experienced massive increases in tree cover resulting from human activities, particularly the suppression of natural fires.? And here?s the kicker! ?As a wildlife biologist, I know a large body of evidence strongly suggests that increasingly dense forests are detrimental to wildlife, including numerous songbirds, and mammals such as rabbits, squirrels, and deer.?

It?s useful to keep in mind that the federal government owns most of the landmass of Nevada and so the restrictions enacted by laws put forth by environmentalists literally turned Nevada into the poster child for bad forest management.

Donna Dekker-Robertson is a forest geneticist and an adjunct professor at American River College in Sacramento, California. That State has almost forty million forested acres. In an August issue of The Washington Times, she wrote that, ?the devastation goes beyond the unnatural (there?s that word again!) accumulation of forest fuels that trigger megafires across Florida, Colorado, Arizona, California and the Pacific Northwest.?

She noted that the US has a higher rate of wood product consumption than any other country in the world, about 2 cubic meters per person. That includes everything from paper plates and napkins, to newsprint, crayons, cosmetics, and charcoal for the barbecue. Despite this, compared to a mere 15 years ago, timber harvests in California were down more than 90% on public lands and 40% on private forest holdings. As a result, California imports an estimated 75% of the wood it consumes. If that just does not make any sense to you, you?re right.

By permitting the managed harvesting of timber in California, not only would the cost be reduced, the forests protected against massive fires, and the environment for wildlife enhanced, but that State and all others that must now import timber would not risk importing non-native pests that are responsible for Dutch Elm disease and chestnut blight infestations. These originate in Asia. There are ?at least 27 potentially dangerous pests that may be accidentally imported and thrive in our forests??

?Wood,? Ms. Dekker-Robertson reminds us, ?is the only entirely renewable and recyclable building material we have. Compared to other building materials, wood saves energy, produces the least greenhouse gases, causes the least water and air pollution, and yields the least solid waste.? Trees are so environmentally pure the power required to grow them comes entirely from the sun!

So why have so many major environmental organizations opposed the proper management of our national forests and made life for private forest owners so difficult? Why do they advocate restrictions that have caused, not just the loss of millions of acres of forest, the jobs generated by the timber industry, but the homes and other structures caught in the path of catastrophic fires?

As Gruell points out, ?Thinning could save lives, enhance critical wildlife habitat, and improve other resource values.?

These common sense reasons for good forest management run counter to the real goals of environmentalists, the destruction of the nation?s timber industry, the requirement for higher costs to build new homes for the nation?s growing population, and the further restrictions on public access to our national forests (and parks), one of the reasons Congress determined to save them in the first place.

Who are the real enemies of our natural forests and other resources? The Greens, the Greens, and the Greens.


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Re: Hellbender [Re: Liberty]
      #120467 - 10/13/07 03:15 PM

"Lib if anyone leans liberal its you."--Hellbender

I think this is hilarious and so does Thomas Sowell in his How to be a Good Liberal (I can't wait to see you attack Sowell as a liberal too) just an excerpt

"that the thinning of forests by lumber companies and forestry workers "destroys habitat," while burning them down in their entirety by allowing unhindered forest fires makes animals "thrive,"
that American corporations' drilling for oil in "environmentally sensitive" areas is bad, but paying billions of dollars to moslem countries for their oil is better,
that the entire earth is an "environmentally sensitive" area, so no development, drilling, or building of any kind is justifiable ANYwhere,
that limiting the supply of fur-bearing animal pelts will make their costs go up, but limiting the sources of gasoline and other petroleum products will not make their costs go up."



in what world is it again that I'm a liberal, you are such a forking jackass


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Re: Hellbender [Re: Liberty]
      #120479 - 10/13/07 05:47 PM

You got me Rosie, you're no doubt one of the best at Cut and Paste on here. Now if you could develop an original thought.................?

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Re: Hellbender [Re: Hellbender]
      #120480 - 10/13/07 05:52 PM

Quote:


Myth #3: Today?s forests are natural forests. Research and photographic evidence show that California?s modern forests are vastly different from historic forests.




Which historic forest, who took the picture, who did the historic research? Was it the same guys doing the Global Warming "Historic Research"? Course if if it was you would buy it like it was a big lipped whore.

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Re: Hellbender [Re: Hellbender]
      #120493 - 10/13/07 09:09 PM

"You got me"--Hellbender

that's all you needed to say


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Re: Hellbender [Re: Liberty]
      #120495 - 10/13/07 09:13 PM

"Which historic forest, who took the picture, who did the historic research?"--Hellbender

we've got photos of the forest for about as long as we've had photography circa 1840, and heavy volumes of it from the 1860s forward

and we know they are now thicker than they were, and we know why, but we won't do anything about it because of envirowhackos who have brainwashed you into believing foolish things that man can't take care of the land around him. How is it that Indians could take care of the land and fashion the forests that we later walked into and we can't with more people, more technology and more knowledge?


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Re: Hellbender [Re: Liberty]
      #120527 - 10/14/07 11:31 AM

Quote:

How is it that Indians could take care of the land and fashion the forests that we later walked into and we can't with more people, more technology and more knowledge?






You make it so easy. We know that because they lacked the manpower and technology, they left them alone.
We have pictures of them sitting on their assess in front of their teepee's, doing nothing. They're helping the forest do what it did for hundreds of thousands of years, grow naturally.


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Edited by Hellbender (10/14/07 11:33 AM)


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Re: Hellbender [Re: Liberty]
      #120531 - 10/14/07 12:33 PM

Quote:

Liberty said:
How is it that Indians could take care of the land and fashion the forests




Funny thing about the modern idea of Indians. One of my great-grandmas was a Cherokee, and I ain't saying they were all bad - but.

How come the people who were there at the time, the white settlers of the 1700's and 1800's, thought Indians were vermin - and now we think the "noble red man" was taking care of the land?

"Political correctness" dictates the glorification of all cultures - all except the white European/American culture, which is always portrayed as bad.

I read a lot about archaeology, and in North America they're constantly finding evidence of killing and cannibalism among Indian tribes. Findings like that are ruthlessly suppressed because of political correctness and modern sensitivity to all cultures. That's b.s., in my opinion.

I think the pre-European Indian world was mostly constant warfare, raids, and butchery between the tribes. When the whites came in and put a stop to that, the surviving Indians were left sneaking around the edges of society - unwilling to work, stealing what they could, and getting drunk.

As far as Indians "taking care" of the land - they didn't take care of chit. They were nasty, dirty, lazy, mostly interested in killing each other, and they exploited the resources of a vast continent just as hard as a few primitive people could. So much for the noble red man.


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Re: Hellbender [Re: Ozark]
      #120555 - 10/14/07 07:27 PM

put aside your racially motivated remarks for a second, there is nothing I have said that makes an Indian any more noble than anyone else, meet a damn white settler from back then, I'm sure you'd want to spend time with their smelly ass as well.

It is historical fact, dumbender that the native people of America managed the lands around them.

Ozark, your idea that it was constant wars is also off the historical mark, there were wars no doubt, but the various tribes traded with each other, which probably led to some of the wars, no different than the wars we had over trade.

Now as to politically correct, the only difference between the natives and the settlers was a technology gap and what each held as religious beliefs and of course our ability to hand out smallpox blankets.

"As far as Indians "taking care" of the land - they didn't take care of chit."--Ozark

the historical accuracy of that comment is undeniably off the mark.

yeah they exploited the resources and they fashioned their forests so they could produce for them by using fire.

We know what a forest left to itself will do, it will become overgrown, the forests weren't overgrown in the west when we arrived. Photos prove this over and over.

well instead of arguing with a couple of idiots who think white man was the only man capable of human intellect, I think I'll continue to revel in the fact that Hellbender is nothing but a tired old liberal who thought he was a conservative all along and Ozark is a man who is incapable of understanding chit when it comes to someone of another skin tone.

I find it amusing that Ozark would argue against the use of a natural resource solely based on his prejudicial views of another culture, and there's enough irony in his views when juxtaposed with his current views on alien invaders that he would hold such a dim light on the first set of people who were overrun by border crossers.

Thin the forests jackasses, that's the argument and you two have aligned yourself with envirowhackos, politics makes strange bed fellows, well enjoy the fukking bed that you have made.


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Re: Hellbender [Re: Liberty]
      #120559 - 10/14/07 08:07 PM

if we can't take care of the land around us, Hellbender, how is it we've settled this country?

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Re: Hellbender [Re: Liberty]
      #120561 - 10/14/07 08:41 PM

Quote:

if we can't take care of the land around us, Hellbender, how is it we've settled this country?





What did we have to do?
When have we done good, when have we not? What did we do before the internet whores who think they have all the answers?
My kin started hittin' the shore in the very early 1700's, they didn't freeze to death so they must have burned a little wood. I know they had a hell of a lot of other things to worry about then thinning forest, but for some strange reason the forest are still here, over 300 years later.

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Re: Hellbender [Re: Liberty]
      #120562 - 10/14/07 08:47 PM

Ah documentation of the US Forest Service, circa 1899. ( That would be the United Sioux Forest Service ), note how thin and orderly the forest is, and how hard they are at work.




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Re: Hellbender [Re: Hellbender]
      #120564 - 10/14/07 09:01 PM

that's a painted backdrop dumbass, don't show a photographer a damn studio photo and try to pass it off as being in the field

you are such a dumbass, sad really


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Re: Hellbender [Re: Liberty]
      #120569 - 10/14/07 09:23 PM

"I know they had a hell of a lot of other things to worry about then thinning forest, but for some strange reason the forest are still here, over 300 years later."--Hellbender

Just as the forest will still be here when we thin them, dumbass. I think you need to take a nap or something your age is showing, you are grasping for straws now that you've been proven to be arguing the liberal side of things

of course continue though because it does nothing but make me laugh


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Re: Hellbender [Re: Liberty]
      #120570 - 10/14/07 09:24 PM

Wow Liberty, very impressive for a career cut and paster. I suppose I have to take your word that there are a lot of pictures of the forest and that they are just paintings. I certainly didn't know they were painted backgounds though.
If there's a way to interject decption, leave it
too the media.

What tipped you off Mr Doyle?

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Re: Hellbender [Re: Liberty]
      #120571 - 10/14/07 09:25 PM

post up some more pictures dumbass come on I could use another laugh

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Re: Hellbender [Re: Liberty]
      #120573 - 10/14/07 09:29 PM

look at him try to redirect, he just embarrasses himself day in and day out and look at him look for wiggle room

dumbass believed he had the damn Rosetta Stone or something and all he had was a damn studio photo of some Indians posing for a photo in front of a painted backdrop, what a jackass


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Re: Hellbender [Re: Liberty]
      #120574 - 10/14/07 09:34 PM

give it up old man damn there ain't anything you've got on this, you are so damn far behind me it ain't even funny, but I guess I will get to see another dumbass post soon

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Re: Hellbender [Re: Liberty]
      #120575 - 10/14/07 09:40 PM

here I've already got my reply ready for your next 20 posts



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Re: Hellbender [Re: Ozark]
      #120576 - 10/14/07 09:47 PM

Quote:

How come the people who were there at the time, the white settlers of the 1700's and 1800's, thought Indians were vermin - and now we think the "noble red man" was taking care of the land?





Not necessarily true Ozark. Fact is that a lot of the very early mingling of the Cherokees, and the mixing, occurred in the Carolina's and Georgia. The area around southern Virginia and North Caroline was, and is well known for the insertion of Indian blood into white settlers families.
It wasn't until Jackson and the Democrats took office that the move to occupy Indian lands began in earnest. The Cherokees and the Creeks were above average farmers, with above average farms, and there was no shortage of whites who didn't want do the work if they could freely occupy. After the big push in 1839 it was non stop until the turn of the century. My point is that it wasn't because the Indians were considered a threat or health problem, it was simply land, nothing more, nothing less.

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Re: Hellbender [Re: Hellbender]
      #120582 - 10/14/07 10:09 PM

Let me see what should I name Hellbender's last post...

CHANGE THE SUBJECT! CHANGE THE SUBJECT! I'M GETTING MY ASS HANDED TO ME! CHANGE THE SUBJECT!



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Re: Hellbender [Re: Liberty]
      #120584 - 10/14/07 10:32 PM

WAS THE 1910 FIRE THE LARGEST?
Evergreen Magazine, Winter Edition 1994-1995
Parts from The Big Blowup

No one can say for certain that the 1910 fire was the largest forest fire ever, but if size alone is the measure, it was indeed the largest forest fire in U.S. history. Other U.S. fires - including some listed below - were more deadly, but none moved as swiftly or as savagely over such a vast uncharted expanse as did the 1910 fire.

Damn, can you believe there are still trees to burn. Listening to our resident expert, Lib, you wouldn't think there were any trees left after 100 years of major fires.

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Re: Hellbender [Re: Hellbender]
      #120585 - 10/14/07 10:35 PM

hey Hellbender, 2.86 million acres burned up in 1910 in Idaho and Montana, of course your source is 12 years old so it can't be blamed for not knowing what happened in 2007, You can though.

care to know how much burned up this year in Idaho and Montana? 2.62 million acres

Also, there are areas of the 1910 fires that never regrew trees, some of the areas are grasslands, I'm kind of well versed in the 1910 fires, you'd better pick a subject you know more about like envirowhackism or something


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Re: Hellbender [Re: Liberty]
      #120586 - 10/14/07 10:38 PM

of course I always love it when you reference a publication that states thinning the forests is desperately needed

from Evergreen Magazine

"Our message is simple and straightforward: the world should be using more wood, not less."


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Re: Hellbender [Re: Liberty]
      #120594 - 10/15/07 01:18 AM

I dunno what you guys are talking about.

I know from experience that brushy woods in time become mature forests, with the big trees shading out the understory. In the Ozarks, I'd guess that process takes 50 years or so.

Our hunting land in Douglas County was logged 15 years ago. Yes, it would make a helluva fire now - but it holds lots of deer. There are lots of brushy thickets there I can hardly get through.

Our neighbor there just had his place logged out. Before that it was "mature forest" with big trees and no underbrush. That's pretty, but it holds few deer or other wildlife.

The first white explorer to reach the Springfield area, a guy named Schoolcroft, described the Ozarks as mature pine forests. He said a man could ride a horse easily between the trees, and there was so little underbrush he could see a long ways ahead. Obviously, the hardwoods we have today spread from the creek bottoms after the pines were logged out.

Growing a mature forest takes time, and I sure doubt the Indians "taking care of the forests" had anything to do with it. Just how many hours a day did you figure those bucks and squaws spent pulling weeds in the woods, anyway?


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Re: Hellbender [Re: Ozark]
      #120595 - 10/15/07 04:00 AM

Ozark you're almost on Hellbender's level, just a couple more steps down, pulling weeds??? native americans used understory fires to clear out the forests, but then again you make your mistakes on purpose.

Ozark if you want to hunt quail forever, make sure you always have a young thick forest, but if you want year round habitat for deer and turkey, you'll need mature forests with open spaces. Deer will also be found around thickets, but a thick forest is not where you will find deer and turkey year round.

For a guy who hunts, you should know this rather than making the statement you made above.



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Ozark
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Re: Hellbender [Re: Liberty]
      #120644 - 10/15/07 11:38 AM

Quote:

Liberty said:
Deer will also be found around thickets, but a thick forest is not where you will find deer and turkey year round.
For a guy who hunts, you should know this rather than making the statement you made above.





You need a combination of both, which is what we've got. Deer bed down in the thickets, especially on ridge tops where anything approaching them has to come uphill. They pass through "mature forests" to get to glades, acorn trees, and bedding areas - but they don't stay there.

The "thickets" we have are mostly multiflora roses and blackberries. The roses are an invasive plant, I don't know if the blackberries are native or not. Both of them will eventually get shaded out as the trees grow and the understory will become open again.

I'd love to set the place on fire and thin it out a bit, as you claim the Indians did - but that's illegal. Funny thing, Conservation area land is next door to us and they burn it off every few years. I guess it ain't illegal if the government does it.

One thing for sure - none of us will ever see the Ozarks in the natural pre-settler condition of big pine forests. Every inch of this country has been changed by man's activities.


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Re: Hellbender [Re: Ozark]
      #120645 - 10/15/07 11:44 AM

every inch of the American West is being changed by man's inactivity

then again restoration forestry is an idea no one seems to have a clue about


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Re: Hellbender [Re: Liberty]
      #120649 - 10/15/07 12:00 PM

Quote:

native americans used understory fires to clear out the forests,




And whats your source for that Chief Rosie?
The Indians in this area did set fires, but not for any restoration BS, but to kill ticks.

Quote:

every inch of the American West is being changed by man's inactivity





No, every inch of the American West is being changed by man's activity, and giving the land to some greedy county politicians looking for votes will only speed the process.

--------------------
A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.


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Re: Hellbender [Re: Hellbender]
      #120654 - 10/15/07 12:14 PM

don't you have some more fake photos to post up?

I love the greedy language you use is that straight from Sorros

it's called local control dumbass, conservatives are for that kind of thing, but then again you are a liberal and wouldn't know that


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Re: Hellbender [Re: Liberty]
      #120655 - 10/15/07 12:16 PM

"And whats your source for that Chief Rosie?"--Hellbender

uhhm, Hellbender I've posted up several sources that speak to this, of course you never read any of them while you were frantically searching for a fake photo of Indians in front of a painting


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Re: Hellbender [Re: Liberty]
      #120656 - 10/15/07 12:20 PM

Quote:

Liberty said:
Ozark if you want to hunt quail forever, make sure you always have a young thick forest, but if you want year round habitat for deer and turkey, you'll need mature forests with open spaces. Deer will also be found around thickets, but a thick forest is not where you will find deer and turkey year round.

For a guy who hunts, you should know this rather than making the statement you made above.












hang on



Straight from his Honda's owners manual...

duko-


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Re: Hellbender [Re: Liberty]
      #120657 - 10/15/07 12:20 PM

"The Indians in this area did set fires, but not for any restoration BS, but to kill ticks."--Hellbender

you mean those blood thirsty savages actually managed the land around them for their own benefit

dude in case you weren't aware, you are doing a hell of a lot more to unravel your own arguments than I ever planned on doing.


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Re: Hellbender [Re: Liberty]
      #120658 - 10/15/07 12:23 PM

look Hellbender it's duko to the rescue, cept he's got nothing to say, as usual.

hey duko you're an urbanite aren't you? Well, I've always lived in a forest setting, so please wow me with your vast knowledge on the subject yet again.


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Re: Hellbender [Re: Liberty]
      #120672 - 10/15/07 01:19 PM

Rosie, its time for you to get help for you self humiliation problem.

Quote:

I've always lived in a forest setting,



You have to be kidding, you really think this makes you an expert??

That way the rest of us can get back discussing things other than your new found expertise in forest management.



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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.


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Re: Hellbender [Re: Hellbender]
      #120688 - 10/15/07 02:28 PM

Now, now HB. Mr. mega "I've always lived in a forest Setting" firestorm is schooling us in all things natural.

By the way firestorm, duko was just clarifiying his trust in your woodland wisdom. There, I have added my support too.


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Re: Hellbender [Re: hillbilly]
      #120691 - 10/15/07 02:47 PM

Mr. Liberty has inspired me to remember a story I hadn't thought about in years.

Back in the 70's sometime, all law enforcement agencies were under tremendous pressure to hire "minorities". The California Highway Patrol assigned a brand-new young black officer to patrol the south central L.A. freeways and he was working his first graveyard shift ever. That's normal, right out of the academy all rookies get the chitty assignments at first until they get the seniority to transfer.

About 5:30 or 6 a.m. that first shift, the new rookie got on the radio all excited and just hollering - he reported a massive fire in the warehouse district. He got fire trucks and cop cars running in all directions. He hollered "Dey's a fi-ball, a great big FI-BALL!"

There wasn't any fire. Apparently the dipchit had never seen the sun come up before. So, for the rest of his brief career in law enforcement, that young officer was known as "FI-BALL". Hell, nobody remembers his name any more, but every cop in Southern California knows who Fi-Ball was.

I propose that Liberty shall henceforth be known as "FI-STORM".


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Re: Hellbender [Re: Ozark]
      #120694 - 10/15/07 03:03 PM

let's see we've got Hellbender, a liberal who thinks he's conservative, who thought he had something when he posted up a photo of some posed Indians in front of a painting and rails against conservative principles, but somehow that doesn't make him a liberal since he's fighting for his kids a place to hunt and he's just dying for something to hit so he won't continue to look like the reeling ass he is (sorry old man you haven't got squat),

we've got Ozark who has yet again shared with us some minority story (white man rules),

we have duko who's yet to say anything other than his typical bullchit

and we have hillbilly who is afraid to answer simple questions, but here they are again for the puss with the bad ass BS degree

OK, see if you can follow hillbilly, the others have long ago been ripped new ones and you are sure to follow

when was the last time you were in a western forest?
When was the last time you were in a burned area in a western forest?
What is your definition of a naturally functioning forest?
Why is it that commercial logging operations destroy biodiversity and that is a bad thing while leaving the forests overloaded with fuel so they can be damaged even more in a firestorm and that's ok?
And what is your occupation, you're going to need to answer that one?

these are simple questions, if you were a man who claims all you have claimed answering these questions would be simple to do, but then again you've been hiding something all along. Dude selling bait at the kwik-e mart ain't working in fisheries, showing a dude a new rifle at Wal-Mart ain't working in wildlife and because you might have once drove through the Mark Twain National Forest doesn't make you a forester.

Answer the questions until you do, you look like the ass you are.

I wonder who else you idiots are going to try to bring in to defeat me, it'll take more than the collective brains you've brought together thus far. It is fun kicking you dumbasses all across cyberspace though.

seriously hillbilly answer the questions otherwise you're just a scared puss


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Re: Hellbender [Re: Liberty]
      #120695 - 10/15/07 03:09 PM

"That way the rest of us can get back discussing things other than your new found expertise in forest management."--Hellbender

you'd love that wouldn't you since you got yer ass kicked,


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Re: Hellbender [Re: Liberty]
      #120696 - 10/15/07 03:12 PM

"you really think this makes you an expert??"--Hellbender

well more of an expert than someone who lived on a scrub brush ranch in a desert then moved to a convalescence home in Missouri so he could chit himself in bed.


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Re: Hellbender [Re: Liberty]
      #120705 - 10/15/07 03:42 PM

Though I don't have to. My employer is Uncle Sam and my rule book is the clean water act. I was also a forester and a resource manager for the same. Oh yeah, I manage pert near 2000 acres of my own for my benefit(conservative utilization of resouces). I like to shoot chit!

"but if you want year round habitat for deer and turkey, you'll need mature forests with open spaces"--fi-storm(Got a ring to it Ozark)

This statement alone renders all past and future rants of yours mute and unworthy of response. Except from maybe duko, whom I am in firm agreement with.

The rest of your assinine questions are so basic as to need no further involvement of mine. My eldest son at 11 has a better grasp on natural workings than you. You might want to go back to some basic biology or ecology courses and work on another shingle though. It might give you some insight to lack of simple knowledge in your rants.


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Re: Hellbender [Re: Liberty]
      #120726 - 10/15/07 04:17 PM

Quote:

Liberty said:
look Hellbender it's duko to the rescue, cept he's got nothing to say, as usual.

hey duko you're an urbanite aren't you? Well, I've always lived in a forest setting, so please wow me with your vast knowledge on the subject yet again.







Listen Tarzan, I don't need to say anything else. You're the only dumb bastard on here who doesn't get it....And thats why you post stupid, unrealistic, bullchit that I laugh at....

Maybe you need to go find a reputable doctor and ask him to check you for beaver fever!

duko


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Re: Hellbender [Re: duko™]
      #120781 - 10/15/07 08:03 PM

"The rest of your assinine questions are so basic as to need no further involvement of mine."--hillbilly

again when was the last time you were in a western forest?

it's a simple question

and yet you refuse to answer it because you don't know a damn thing about the western forests

the clean water act in Missouri, now that's laughable so your "expertise" lies in getting cows to stop chitting in the streams and to stop hog farms from sending their waste into the streams

you're doing a great job


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Re: Hellbender [Re: Liberty]
      #120782 - 10/15/07 08:04 PM

if I am wrong about using our forests for the natural resources within them, then why is it the forest service is under the auspices of the United States Department of Agriculture and not in the Department of the Interior, yet another simple question none of you will ever answer

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Re: Hellbender [Re: Liberty]
      #120784 - 10/15/07 08:15 PM

"This statement alone renders all past and future rants of yours mute and unworthy of response."--hillbilly

you're right deer do much better living on burned areas with no food and no cover

hey dumbass, that statement is straight out of a forester's handbook, I thought a former resource forester, one who works for Uncle Sam would know that, but since you are obviously an internet bad ass with a BS I guess you would know better.

No wonder you forest service types are hellbent to burn down all the forests you think deer don't live in mature forests, open spaces and thickets

hey hillbilly where do the bears live, at the zoo

are the turkeys only in the frozen food section at the grocery store

what an ass


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Re: Hellbender [Re: Liberty]
      #120802 - 10/15/07 10:08 PM

"I manage pert near 2000 acres of my own for my benefit(conservative utilization of resouces). I like to shoot chit!"--hillbilly

a perfect example of a government employee, he can own a large tract of land, but anyone else would destroy the land what a fukking ass

I bet they taught you that in school didn't they right around the time they taught you that deer don't live in forests


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Re: Hellbender [Re: Liberty]
      #120806 - 10/15/07 10:27 PM

I guess hillbilly's out putting a diaper on a cow before it chits in the stream

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