sptsman
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 6199
Loc: Missouri
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Unless you pay little or no attention to what is going on in the sports world, you have probably seen this:
Little League story about walking boy to get to cancer kid...
So, if you were the coach, would you have walked him?
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"Hunts are best measured by the endurance of the memories they produce..."
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BruceCarp
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 802
Loc: central MO
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that blew, it's just a game, why not let the kids play. sport, how is life in centertown?
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crappie fisherman & waterfowl hunter
retired Army
But wait a minute I think I have another bite!!!!
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bgbrdhntr
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 630
Loc: MO
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Quote:
BruceCarp said:
that blew, it's just a game, why not let the kids play.
They did and the kid struck out!!! Walk him and you got two runners on. Championship game, it's a tough call. My sons 9 and he's got a kid on his team that is a "little off" and hasn't played a day of ball. No team takes it easy on him and he strikes out everytime. But that's the game. No intentional walks to him. Parents know the rules and want they're son to have normalcy and be treated the same as any other boy. That's the battles he'll have to face. I would question his own coach. If they're raisin such a stick about ethics and complaining the other team should have done this or that. Why didn't he know the boy was coming up to bat in an inning or two and maybe put a reserve kid in to save the kid from having to make a game saving hit. Parents would've faulted him then for making such a decision just as now people fault the other teams coach for making his decision.
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"ya'll take ah good look at this lump of chit, remember what it looks like"
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sptsman
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 6199
Loc: Missouri
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Bruce - all well on this side of the state. Just busy as a cat coverin' up... Not much time for fishun' or anything other than work, family and kids stuff right now.
bgbrdhntr - You remind me of the old Saturday Night Live skits where Rosana Anna Danna end up saying, "Nevermind" at the end. Dude, they didn't walk the cancer kid. They walked the good hitter with two outs and a baserunner on first, to get to the cancer kid. They did put two runners on by walking the good kid. They knew the candcer kid would strike out because of his condition. So, he wasn't being treated like everyone else. He was, in fact, being singled out or "picked on" because of his condition.
A few things you need to understand: First, this was a non-competitive / recreational league (which begs the question: Why is there a championship game in the first place? But I digress.). In this league, it is virtually unheard of to walk kids intentionally. Second, the kids are 9 year-olds, not high school or even junior high. They are about one or two years removed from being snot-nosed, booger eating, can't-catch-or-hit-a-ball, annoying kids.
I think far too much is being made of this but I also think the winning coach showed a tremendous lack of class and sportsmanship. He should have walked to the mound and told his pitcher, "This is the best hitter on the team. If you want to win this game and be the best, you have to beat the best. Now, do the best you can and lets get this guy..." That's how you teach kids to win...
I have coached for years and NEVER intentionally walked a kid. Hell, my pitchers and catchers never even knew how to do it. I didn't think it was an important fundamental they needed to learn, considering you can teach it to a kid that has been playing ball for a few years, in about ten minutes. Of course, we only gave the "take" sign about twice a year as well. Until they get to high school, let 'em play the game. It's the only way they learn.
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"Hunts are best measured by the endurance of the memories they produce..."
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griffin
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Reged: 12/13/05
Posts: 9631
Loc: the most dangerous city in Ame...
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Intentionally walking ANY kid in a 9 year old recreational league might just be the bottom of the barrel in my book....to do it to get to a kid who is a Cancer Survivor and working his way back to a normal life makes it lower then the bottom of the barrel.
I read about this deal in Reilly's column in Sports Illustrated.
I would pull my kid off that team, PERIOD.
There ain't a single kid on the "winning" team that would have given a damn about losing once they were into their second batch of nachos and a Cherry ICEE.
I don't know what the hell happened to teaching kids to give it your best effort to win, and then if you don't, you congratulate the better team and go back to trying hard to win again.
While I agree that if it's not about winning and losing then why play the game......it's still important for a kid to learn to win AND lose (with your BEST effort).....that's why we have our kids play sports.
Fork that coach.
griffin
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"The Irish are one race of people for whom psychoanalysis is of no use whatsoever." - Sigmund Freud
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sptsman
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 6199
Loc: Missouri
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After coaching youth sports for 14-15 years, I learned a few things along the way. Of all the things I learned, nothing is more important than these basic principles. They are my foundation for coaching kids:
-Coach the kids to learn the sport and be better at it than when you go them. Teach the fundamantals and don't go to the next level until they've mastered the basics.
-Coach the kids to learn sportsmanship and fair play. Play hard but always play fair. Be good loser and gracious winner.
-Coach the kids to have fun. No matter how many games you win or lose, they are not coming back if it wan't fun. You can teach them and lot and still have fun. It's all about your attitude as a coach.
Within each of those basic principles, you could write a book. But I have found that if you keep these as your priorities, you'll be a successful youth coach.
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"Hunts are best measured by the endurance of the memories they produce..."
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duko™
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 3442
Loc: east mo
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I pitched and my dad coached our baseball team all the way up through my high school years... I can't ever recall being told to intentionally walk someone until the latter levels of Khoury league. But some coaches have a different way of thinking, be it right or wrong. I guess I would have to pose this question; if the kid wasn't cancer stricken, but just a bad hitter, would there still be this same level of criticism? I didn't read the article, just what has been posted on this thread. I can't say that I agree with what the coach did, but when it comes to coaching kids sports, sometimes the coaches get caught up in the heat of the moment more than the kids. I would venture a guess that if that coach could do it over again now that he had time to think about it rationally, he would probably pitch to the kid rather then walk him. Maybe not.....its all about winning for some folks.
duko
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griffin
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Reged: 12/13/05
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Quote:
griffin said:
Intentionally walking ANY kid in a 9 year old recreational league might just be the bottom of the barrel in my book
Hey Duko Carlton.....which part of that went over your little pinhead? 
griffin
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"The Irish are one race of people for whom psychoanalysis is of no use whatsoever." - Sigmund Freud
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duko™
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 3442
Loc: east mo
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you said might...... 
and besides, your coaching ethics makes the above coach sound like a Saint...throwing a heater at a kid with cerebral palsy is minuscule compared to making the kids buy the coach a 30 pack for every game they lose! 
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Mel
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 6896
Loc: Excelsior Springs, MO
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Two viewpoints on this problem........
1. In our recreational leagues, starting out with T-Ball, everyone plays. No official stats are even kept unless a coach wants to keep them for himself. The main emphasis is on teaching the kids how to play. If they win, they win; if they lose, they lose, shake hands and head for the malt shop.
2. It stops being just a recreational league, and becomes competitive, about the time kids get to 13-14 years of age. At that point, they want to win. It gets really competitive to them. By then, they have mastered the fundamentals, and know how to play the game. That's where your higher level Babe Ruth Leagues and such come into play. Unfortunately, it's also about the time the parents start wanting their children to be the players that they themselves never were. The parents are mortified if their kid makes an error or loses the game. That's the down side.
I coached several teams from 9-10, 13-15, etc. Everybody played at least two innings in every game, but at 13-15 they wanted to win. Kids ought to have a time to play just for fun. The really good players will sort themselves out later.
I lost my soapbox icon, but I'm done. 
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Member DU, Delta
Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names - John Kennedy
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griffin
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Reged: 12/13/05
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Well, Casey Stengel, you gonna walk the damn kid or not???
griffin
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"The Irish are one race of people for whom psychoanalysis is of no use whatsoever." - Sigmund Freud
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Mel
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 6896
Loc: Excelsior Springs, MO
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Personally, I would not have walked the other kid to get at someone who had cancer and had only had two hits in twelve games in a Recreational League. I don't think that is playing within the spirit of the game. I would have pitched to the good batter and just considered it to be the way things worked out if he beat me. It's a for-fun league for pete's sake. That's probably why I never was considered too smart of a coach tactically.
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Member DU, Delta
Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names - John Kennedy
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Mel
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 6896
Loc: Excelsior Springs, MO
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One more thing. Excelsior Springs had a high school player make all-metro this year as a pitcher. Was a pretty fair batter also. He only had one arm. Lost the other in an accident. Talk about a hill to climb to just learn the sport as a kid.
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Member DU, Delta
Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names - John Kennedy
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dabs
Reged: 12/13/05
Posts: 5971249
Loc: New Money, USA
Current High Scores in:
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It is what it is. Unfortunately, youth sports aren't about the youths anymore, for the most part. They are instead about the coaches and the parents. The kids are just there as a formality.
9 year old played in a competitive tourney last month. They didn't win a game in the tournament, but that is neither here nor there. Walked up the field on Saturday just in time to see two mothers, one from each team, jabbing each other in the chest with their fingers, yelling that they were going to kick the others ass. The husbands, one being a coach and the other standing on the bleachers on the other side watching, didn't do a damn thing about it. The umpires had to call time in the game and leave the field to seperate them. They did not throw them out of the park and for the rest of the game, nobody paid attention to the teams because they were busy watching the women stare each other down and the men also started a stare down.
Another time, during regular league play, a pitcher for the other team pitched 61 pitches. Our teams coaches stopped the game and showed the officials using the scorebook it was 61 pitches (we were home team). The visiting team made an error in counting and didn't take the kid out at 60 pitches as the league rules say. The league officials made the team forfeit the game.
It aint about the kids no more in my opinion and things won't get better until people decide it needs to be about the kids again.
I think griffin is correct. The kids don't remember losing after about 15 minutes if they are lead positively and told to try your best to win, but if you lose, hold your head high and no you can't win everything.
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bgbrdhntr
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 630
Loc: MO
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Shoulda beaned him and put him on, he woulda felt good being able to get to first base. Then while he's standin out there prolly not payin attention, pick off move, out number 3, game over everybody's happy 
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"ya'll take ah good look at this lump of chit, remember what it looks like"
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sptsman
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 6199
Loc: Missouri
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Excellent ...
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"Hunts are best measured by the endurance of the memories they produce..."
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sptsman
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 6199
Loc: Missouri
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Here are a few of the many things I've seen in the past several years, while coaching little league:
-At a 9-10 year-old tournamant (recreational bracket), the game before us was in the late innings and it was close. There was a kid on second with 2 outs. The coach calls time and goes to the mound. He calls in the infield, apparently to discuss how to deal with the runner. They meet for a few minutes behind the mound and he returns to the bench. In short, they pull the hidden ball trick on the kid on 2nd base. It works, the inning is over and the kid on 2nd is crying. For no justifiable reason, I stuck my nose where it didn't belong and told the coach, as he was leaving the dugout and we were entering, that was the most classless thing I had ever seen in youth sports. I made damn sure most of the kids and over half of his parents heard it too. He told me it was legal and it helped them win... We played them the next day and short-gamed them in five innings. Needless to say, I gave my kids a crash course in not getting off the bag until the pitcher's foot is on the rubber...
-At one of our 10-11 year-old games, we had a pitcher that could throw pretty hard and he could also throw a change-up that really put the hitters off balance (no curveballs on my teams at that age). Our catcher didn't quite have the signal thing down and pretty much broadcasted the signs to anyone within 180 degrees. The first base coach figured out the signs pretty quickly (not hard when it is 1 & 2). This a-hole yells to the batter on every pitch and tells him what is coming. I said something to him from the bench about sportsmanship and the age of the kids. He looked at me and said, "Hey, whatever it takes to win..." Needless to say, I called time, explained to the catcher how to pull his knees together and called the coach a jerk on my way back.
-Same coach, same game... His ace pitcher wasn't there and the #2 guy had to carry the load. Since he didn't want to risk using the next guy on the depth chart, he kept this kid in through 6 innings. We were up by at least 5 runs and the kids was crying that his arm hurt. The A-hole coach told him to suck it up and finish he game. Eventually the umpire called time, walked to the mound and asked the coach to come out. I don't know what was said but the #3 pitcher finished the game...
Good Lord there are some first class A-holes coaching kids out there...
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"Hunts are best measured by the endurance of the memories they produce..."
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Whackattack
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 2554
Loc: Farmington, Mo
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If anybody was doubting why the terrorists hate our country, all they have to do is flip on ESPN and watch the parents and coaches of the teams at the Little League world series for baseball AND softball. Parents of little league baseball players are bad, but what the f is wrong with all these damn grown ups going ape sh't over 12 year old girls softball.
The hidden ball trick is some funny sh't. We used that all the time when we were kids. But a coach never, ever told us to do it. We were just little sneaky a holes. If a coach called a conference to put it on, he was a douche. Buuuuuuuuuuuuut it did provide a teachable moment. I bet that kid never falls for it again. I got two kids boy/girl that I would like to be athletic. If they are I will prolly be like my old man. My dad was a good athlete. He taught us the fundes while we were in the yard and played catch or football with us nearly every damn day, but kept his mouth pretty much shut when game time came. He always sided with the ump/ref even if the call went against us and thankfully we had good coaches that my dad would back 99% of the time. Other than that he just let us play. Except the time he booed me when I threw 3 interceptions in High School. Told me after the game that he was embarassed. 
All you overzealous, living vicariously thru your kids, douche bag parents out there need a life.
Oh yeah, I wouldn't have walked the good hitter to get to the cancer kid. I would have hit him with the first pitch. The dude already hit a bomb and why throw 4 pitches when you can do the job with one. That way you got more stamina to strike out the cancer kid.
Edited by Whackattack (08/16/06 12:38 PM)
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griffin
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Reged: 12/13/05
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Loc: the most dangerous city in Ame...
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Girls sports are the worst. My second oldest daughter played basketball and volleyball all through grade school and high school.
I pulled her off the first 3rd grade team she was on after the first game. The parents booed the other team, cursed at the ref, and finally recieved two technicals from the ref and a warning that the team would have to forfeit if it continued....that was enough for me.
If seen a few scenes like it since with girls sports....and I'm always amazed.
Seems like every parent thinks their daughter is going to college on an athletic scholarship since the NCAA opened the flood gates for girls sports equality. As the father of 4 girls I'm OK with it.....but they unleashed the hounds with that one.
griffin
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"The Irish are one race of people for whom psychoanalysis is of no use whatsoever." - Sigmund Freud
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Mel
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 6896
Loc: Excelsior Springs, MO
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I definitely agree that you have far more problems with overzealous parents that you do with the kids. In our Parks and Recreation leagues up here, I have seen parents removed from the premises.
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Member DU, Delta
Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names - John Kennedy
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Whackattack
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 2554
Loc: Farmington, Mo
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Hey Sportsman, I was thinking about your little hidden ball scenario and come to the conclusion that it wasn't only classless but illegal. You said they called timeout and the coach went out to the mound. If I'm not mistaken, a time out is only broken when a pitcher toes the rubber. In order to do that he has to have the ball. If he toed the rubber and the SS or 2B had the ball, then its a balk. I would tell the losing coach to file a protest. Then you would really be sticking your nose in and ruffling feathers.
Keep that in mind in case one of your boys is watching draggin flies and meanders off a base and gets tagged out.
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HAUS
member for now
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 4065
Loc: Paradise
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You boys need to take these long assed posts over to the Political Forum before I have Tardo start moderatin yer asses. 
BTW-- The intentional walk was pure chickenshit. I hope the coach takes a foul ball off the temple and ends up worse than the cancer kid.
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Never kick a fresh turd on a hot day..
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sptsman
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 6199
Loc: Missouri
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Quote:
sptsman said:
The coach calls time and goes to the mound. He calls in the infield, apparently to discuss how to deal with the runner. They meet for a few minutes behind the mound...
Having umpired quite a bit, as well a coached, I knew the kid couldn't step on the rubber, without the ball or it would have been a balk. As soon as it happened, I looked to see and the kid pitching was pretty far away from the rubber. Keep in mind, I'm just watching because we're waiting to play the next game. But you can bet your arse that I would have been hollering at the umps (in a helpful, reminding sort of way, of course), if that were the case and it wasn't called.
Actually, the fact that it was pulled off so well makes it even more pathetic. They obviously practised it and had it down pat...
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"Hunts are best measured by the endurance of the memories they produce..."
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rigley
Reged: 06/30/06
Posts: 24
Loc: missouri
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Whatever happened to teaching kids sportsmanship and how to play the game the right way? There is nothing better than beating the shnit out of someone without saying a word. We should be teaching these kids that sports are like life play them with respect, treat every team like they want to be treated. It takes a pretty low man to walk the best hitter and pitch to the cancer kid..
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Whackattack
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 2554
Loc: Farmington, Mo
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Vroom.....the hole point just flew over Sportmans head....
Dude if you call time out....... You can't start a play whether it be the runner stealing or the hidden ball trick catching some dumbass wondering off base until the pitcher toes the rubber. A pitcher can't toe the rubber without the ball in his hand or mitt. Case FREAKIN closed. Dude cheated. Wasn't rehearsed or practiced it waas il fuccccccckkkkkkking legal. Now either you fight the dude in the parking lot for being a prick or you tell the losing coach he got forked and watch the fireworks begin.
Duddent matter to me one bit but you should know the rules for the future son it don't happen to you.
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