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Liberty
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Hellbender
      #120214 - 10/11/07 07:38 PM

this opinion piece kind of flies in the face of your idea of wilderness, perhaps you should reconsider your idea before Carole King gets her way with shutting off a vast area of the northern Rockies with her bill that Congress will be taking up in the next few weeks.

from SOS forests

Wilderness Designation Leads To Catastrophic Megafires
October 11th, 2007

Wilderness designation is not ?protection.? Wilderness designation is guaranteed destruction.

When Congress declares a parcel of land to be official Wilderness, invariably that land is consumed in a megafire shortly thereafter. Overlay a map of the megafires of the last 20 years on a map of our National Wilderness Areas. You will see how close they line up. Very few Wilderness Areas have escaped catastrophic, 100 percent mortality, ?stand replacement? fires.

The forests, wildlife, scenic beauty, water quality, and general ambiance of our Wilderness Areas, prior to designation, has been turned into wastelands, devoid of trees, wildlife, beauty, and ambiance.

Charred and rotting snags dot the landscape like ugly pins in a pincushion, one that stretches as far as the eye can see in every direction. The ground is blackened, with drifts of choking ash. Here and there a sprig of brush struggles in the alkali. The silence is complete and deathly, because there are no birds chirping, no squirrels chattering, no mice scurrying, no deer leaping, no elk crashing.

Wastelands. Scorched earth. Mega-death zones. No Man?s Land. Nuked Land. Chernobylized.

That?s what wilderness designation means.

The landscapes so designated are not ?wildernesses? in any rational, informed, historically-accurate context. In every case, our Wilderness Areas were in fact populated with resident human beings over the past 10,000 years or more. They are no more wilderness than Scranton, Birmingham, or the ironically named Indianapolis.

And everybody knows this! Everybody knows there were Indians.

Apparently, many have not yet accepted that Indians, like human beings everywhere in all the Ages of Man, had enormous impact and influence over the vegetation, wildlife, beauty, water, and general ambiance of the entire landscape, excluding only the highest peaks scalable only with modern climbing tools. Those are the facts, however.

So-called Roadless Areas are in fact roaded, and have been roaded for thousands of years. Extensive foot-road networks were woven across every watershed in the America?s long before Columbus landed. The land has been occupied and used by resident human beings who produced diverse goods and traded them via far-reaching trade routes.

But for some reason we choose to ignore what we know, and instead paint a fairy tale mythos at total odds with the facts!

Somehow the Indians had zero impact, because either they didn?t exist, or else they were sub-human and must have flitted from bush to bush like butterflies, doing no ?trammmeling? and leaving ?no imprint of man.? That?s a racist and dehumanizing mindset, to be truthful. It smacks of conquest and dismissal of the vanquished to the dustbin of history.

Somehow Mother Nature, in all her pagan glory, really steered the ship. That?s what the myth says. The mythologizers want you to worship Mother Nature.

Mother Nature has not been steering the ship because she does not exist. She is a false god, a painted idol, and not real. Nature, or Life, is not a sentient being and is not fragile, having persevered for more than a billion years on this planet.

Come what may, the rat, the cockroach, and the pond scum will survive.

Our job is to be good stewards of our landscapes. That is the legacy left to us by the First Residents. It is our birthright to care for the land, and indeed it is our birth-responsibility.

Abandoning millions of acres of priceless, heritage forests to catastrophic incineration and extinction is not good stewardship. It violates the fundamental core of our role as human beings.

The new wilderness proposals in Congress are more than wrong-headed, they are destructive of our heritage, legacy, and of our birthrights and responsibilities, which are owed to our ancestors, to each other, to our children?s children, and to our planet.
end


whoever this guy is, he seems to be speaking my language

we are either a part of our environment and therefore charged to use it or we came here on alien ships and should return home, it's just that simple


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Hellbender
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Re: Hellbender [Re: Liberty]
      #120220 - 10/11/07 08:36 PM

Quote:

The landscapes so designated are not ?wildernesses? in any rational, informed, historically-accurate context. In every case, our Wilderness Areas were in fact populated with resident human beings over the past 10,000 years or more. They are no more wilderness than Scranton, Birmingham, or the ironically named Indianapolis.

And everybody knows this! Everybody knows there were Indians.





Well she obviously has about as much knowledge and attention span as you do.
You can still put a tepee up in the wilderness, you just can't drive into it, instead you have to take a horse, if you must get there on your ass, kind of like a a a ah ah an Indian?

Given the fact they are small areas overall and planted in the thickest forested areas, I'm sure they are susceptible, just like when the Indians were managing the forest, or did they?
Sorry sonny, no points.

Quote:

They are no more wilderness than Scranton, Birmingham, or the ironically named Indianapolis




She does have a knowledge of "Wilderness" that rivals yours, Whats her take on the Elk Beaver situation in Yellowstone.

--------------------
A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.


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Re: Hellbender [Re: Hellbender]
      #120262 - 10/12/07 12:44 AM

and here's another one

"A Natural Woman
October 8th, 2007

The inimitable Rocky Barker of the Idaho Statesman recently posted on his blog (here) a warning alarm about the new Wilderness Bill crawling around the halls of Congress:

Carole King and supporters finally get House hearing on ambitious wilderness bill

By Rocky Barker on Fri, 10/05/2007

Carole King and her patient, hard-working band of wilderness advocates finally have a hearing for the most ambitious wilderness bill since the Alaska Lands Act.

The U.S. House of Representatives Natural Resources Committee subcommittee on National Parks, Forests and Public Lands will hold a hearing October 18 on the Northern Rockies Ecosystem Protection Act. The bill, sponsored by New York Democrat Rep. Carolyn Maloney (D-NY) and Connecticut Republican Christopher Shays would designate as wilderness nearly 7 million acres in Montana, 9.5 million acres in Idaho, 5 million acres in Wyoming, 750,000 acres in eastern Oregon, and 500,000 acres in eastern Washington.

Another three million acres in Yellowstone, Glacier and Grand Teton National Parks also would become wilderness, where no logging, road-building, motorized use, and new oil and gas drilling or new mining could take place. King, the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame singer-songwriter, has repeatedly gone door to door, office to office in Congress to collect 116 sponsors for the bill, which would designate all of the inventoried roadless areas in the Northern Rockies as wilderness, and authorize a land restoration program that would create thousands of jobs.

Carole King, of course, is the famous songstress who wrote the song (You Make Me Feel) Like A Natural Woman, among others. Evidently she now also needs massive wilderness set-asides, because whatever she was singing about in that song isn?t working for her anymore. She?s lost that natural woman feeling, and desires to commandeer half the West and burn to the ground to get it back.

Hollywood do-gooder morons do not do good; instead they do irreparable damage. However, Congress being what it is, gushed all over Ms. King and her soulful tunes about nature and her natural feelings. Now the rest of us have to somehow prevent the horrors of catastrophic megafire that Ms. King, in her blissful Tinsel Town ignorance, wishes to inflict upon real Americans.

More from Rocky:

So now the West?s most devout preservationists finally get their chance in Congress with the first hearing on the bill in more than a decade. House Speaker, Nancy Pelosi is a personal friend of King?s. The long-time Idaho resident has worked hard to get Democrats elected and now she gets her chance.

So Ms. King is not only a wealthy entertainer, she is also a mover and shaker in Congress. What?s more, she?s a ?resident? of Idaho. I am just guessing that we?re talking about Sun Valley, not Yellow Pine. In any case, that means she may possibly have noticed the 1,250 square mile forest fire that denuded the Idaho Batholith this summer. Her lovely wilderness is now a wasteland of scorched earth about to slide into the streams and rivers in the biggest erosion event in Idaho since the Bretz Floods.

If she did notice, or even if she didn?t, that?s the kind of holocaust that Ms. King?s Wilderness Bill will perpetrate.

A better plan, and one that almost the entire country could get behind, is to declare the Los Angeles Basin a Wilderness Area, and burn it to the ground. Bye-bye Hollywood, Beverly Hills, Encino, Industrial City, Compton, Glendale, and all those other affronts to Mother Nature. Ms. King could even write a song about it. She could call it I Hate L.A.

The good people of Idaho should have a chat with their fellow resident, and steer her towards incinerating Hollywood instead of Idaho, because the former is already a wasteland and truly needs a thorough cleansing via eco-health administering fire.

Idaho and the rest of the real (non-illusionary) West have had enough of that kind of thing, thank you very much, Carole."

but then again I am sure Hellbender has no problem with designating all of the northern rockies as wilderness, since his ass lives in Missouri


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Re: Hellbender [Re: Liberty]
      #120263 - 10/12/07 12:47 AM

and since the jackass never got the message before, here's an oldy but goody

"The Death of Neighborliness
October 2nd, 2007

We are bombarded every day with anti-humanity propaganda, in newspapers, TV, our schools, books, magazines, movies, you name it. The theme that Man Is Bad runs 24/7 in bulk.

We have screwed up Nature, the land, the water, and even the climate. People have wrecked the planet. There are too many people. We need to reduce our population, reduce the human footprint, or else the whole planetary ecosystem will collapse and we?ll all die, and everything will go extinct, except for rats and cockroaches, of course.

That last part makes it scientific. The Man Is Bad theme is big in Science. The Consensus of Scientists is that Man Is A Mistake. School teachers agree. Most school teachers deal with a crowd of little people every day. It?s obvious that there are too many of them. Everybody agrees, with a few exceptions, like the Pope, (what a maroon!).

The US Forest Service, the Nature Conservancy, the Wilderness Society, and many politicians, pundits, and plain folks are convinced that our national forest fire crisis is the fault of the neighbors, the human beings that reside on rural land within 30 miles of the Federal Estate. The reason our fire suppression costs are so large, so they say, is that the Feds are spending all the money protecting the neighbors.

Their solution? Why, ban all homes within 30 miles of USFS or BLM land. No homes, nothing to protect, no need for fire suppression, big cost savings.

The Feds have already abandoned our public lands to ?natural? catastrophic megafires. They can?t stop firestorms at the National Forest borders. Now, to ?fix? the problem, they wish to burn out the neighbors, too.

If No Touch, Let It Burn, Watch It Rot is a wonderful ecosystemic, heath-giving, natural way to manage public forests and ranges, then it must be good for private land as well, and maybe even more so.

Those are their stated excuses, anyway. As ridiculous and illogical as they are, the excuses mask the deeper motivation. The Environmental Movement and their government lackeys wish to drive Humanity off the land. Their unneighborliness is the core to their apple.

Humanity, however, is of the land. People have always lived on the land, since we evolved 150,000 years ago, or since Adam and Eve whenever, it doesn?t matter. People have always lived in largely un-built environments.

Only very recently have a large number of humans lived in synthetic environments of concrete, steel, asphalt, and glass, with artificial lighting, air, water, and food. Jamming scads of humans into plastic fantastic artificial environments is a brand new experiment.

The new social experiment strives for a dystopic vision of a de-humanized planet, except for dense artificial bubbles filled with sardine people, pock-marked here and there on the landscape, while Mother Nature operates with abandonment outside the walls of the cities.

In many ways that experiment is failing, and not the least of which is the Death of Neighborliness. Urbanites are adamant in their self-delusions and wish to impose their plastic abstractions on the rest of the planet. That means de-humanizing as much of the land as they can.

It also means a profound disregard for their fellow human beings. De-humanization, or pan-ethnic cleansing of the landscape, is the ultimate in unneighborliness.

In Oregon we are engaged in yet another land use planning battle, Measure 49 (yet another property rights grab). The war has been going on here for 30 years or more. Oregon ?leads? the Nation in land use planning. The issue is complex, but if you scratch away the crust, inside you will find the struggle is between people who wish to live on the land, and those who wish to take that right away from them.

To live on the land, to be resident in a non-urban setting, is the natural, historical state of the human species. We are highly evolved as a species, no doubt, and have developed the means to be excellent land stewards. Yes we have. Humanity has not wrecked the planet. We know how to be good stewards, and have been good stewards in many places.

Resident stewardship in a rural setting means to care for one?s land, but also to be a part of a larger landscape which also requires care, protection, and maintenance.

Resident stewardship is good for the land, good for the individual, good for society, and good for our species.

Property rights are human rights. Tenure (title) and tenancy (living on your land) are natural human rights. Humans are territorial by instinct. We need our space. We need to have exclusive control over our home territories: where we sleep at night, where we keep our stuff, where we gather and hunt our food, where we take shelter from the storm. Those are deep animal instincts that we cannot violate without social discord, strife, and upheaval.

Driving your neighbors from their homes, burning them out, or imposing insufferable regulations upon them, are not the right ways to treat your neighbor. A wise man once said that best course of action, for various reasons, would be to Love Thy Neighbor. Cleansing rural America of humanity is not a loving action. It is a hate-filled action, motivated by anti-humanity fear and loathing.

Our philosophically bankrupt Post Modern Age has lost the knack of neighborliness. We still have proximity; we didn?t lose that. Whatever is proximate to USFS land is in the Whooie, the Wildland-Urban Interface (WUI) and therefore subject to draconian anti-home laws and megafires.

We get it that close to the Feds means close to disaster. We understand nearness or proximity to a huge hazard.

What we don?t get anymore is neighborliness. The Big Landowners (in particular) don?t know how to Love Thy Neighbor. It?s easier for the USFS and the Environmental Movement to hate the individuals who reside in proximity. It?s cheaper to burn out the residents than to put out the fires before they cross the line. It?s easier to steal the neighbors? human rights rights to tenure and tenancy. That fits their program of takeover.

The current trend of unneighborliness is rampant, epidemic, irrupting everywhere, globally. It is sickening, evil, and destructive. I have called it a war, and it is, because it is a takeover of territory, by force, by an organized militia. But it is also symptomatic of a decline in our very humanity, our quality of being humane.

De-humanizing the landscape does not solve the problem; it is the problem."


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Re: Hellbender [Re: Liberty]
      #120264 - 10/12/07 12:49 AM

and another one since you have no brain

"Eliminating Forests
September 29th, 2007

The proposition is oft stated that catastrophic fires are good for our forests. The reasons given are that fire is ?natural? and inevitable, that the forest trees and plants are adapted to fire, and even ?dependent? on fire, and that fire ?rejuvenates? the forest.

That proposition lacks nuance. No two fires are alike. Fire A is not Fire B. No two forests are alike, either. Conditions vary, phenomena vary, and effects vary. The outcomes of catastrophic fire are not random, however, although they do have some elements of chaos.

Chaos is a pre-deterministic pattern disruption. That is, the outcomes depend on initial conditions.

Given the initial conditions of a fuel-laden, thicket-type forest, catastrophic fire has a tendency to largely eliminate that forest from the landscape, and replace it with a different ecosystem. The new ecosystem develops new patterns, determined by slope, soil, exposure, etc., but almost invariably the new ecosystem does not have trees.

Modern catastrophic forest fires kill all the trees. Young and old-growth trees alike succumb in the intense heat. Modern fires also sear away the shrub and herbaceous layers, and leave a carpet of ash and charcoal, with patches of exposed mineral soil. No living biomass remains above ground.

Occasional patches of green trees remain after catastrophic fires, sometimes in deep canyons and sometimes on ridge tops. Forest fires create their own cyclonic winds, and chaotic burn-skips can and do occur in odd patterns. Often the ?surviving? trees die from beetle attack and fungal diseases soon after the fire, such infestations brought about by the massive sudden mortality in the adjacent burned zones.

Modern catastrophic forest fires do not leave a ?mosaic? of ?patches?. Modern fires are more like continuous, vast inkblots or spreading rashes that consume all the vegetation in amoeba-like patterns with lobes, bulges, and arms.

Furthermore, if unburned patches remain inside fire perimeters, it is the practice to have fire crews burn them out, deliberately, as part of mop-up operations. This is typically done as a safety measure in early season fires to prevent flare-ups later on in the summer. But the upshot is that any ?mosaic tiles? of a few green spots inside the amoeba-like fire perimeter are eliminated by fire crews before the beetles and fungus can get to them.

New forests do not arise across the vast, 100-percent-mortality burns. Instead grasses and weedy annuals invade. Sprouting shrubs, whose root systems were insulated deep in the soil, struggle for growing space, sunlight, and especially soil moisture with the grasses and weeds.

Few conifers stump-sprout, and none of our inland forest species do. Pines, firs, and spruces propagate by seed. Modern catastrophic fires burn so severely that soils are baked and seed banks are destroyed. Any lucky conifer seeds that survive and subsequently germinate must compete with grasses, weeds, and well-rooted shrubs. And the few conifers that make it to 15-50 years-of-age will be incinerated in the next catastrophic fire, which will likely be classed as a brush fire, not a forest fire.

Take Mann Gulch, for example. In 1949 a forested canyon on the Missouri River 20 miles north of Helena burned in the fire that also killed 13 firefighters. In his famous book about the Mann Gulch Fire, Young Men And Fire, author Norman Maclean doesn?t discuss the vegetation much. There is this passage, however:

In the formal description of the Report of Board of Review:? At the point of origin of the fire the fuel type consisted of a dense stand of six- to eight-inch Douglas fir and some ponderosa pine on the lateral ridges.?

But it was a different type of fuel on the north side, where the crew was now on its way to the river. ?At the point of disaster the tree cover consisted of stringers of scattered young ponderosa pine trees with occasional overmature ponderosa pine trees. The ground cover or understory which predominated was bunch grass with some cheat grass.? Essentially the north side of Mann Gulch was rocky and steep with a lot of grass and brush and only a scattering of trees. The south side was densely timbered.

Maclean?s photos bear out his descriptions of Mann Gulch. Some were agency photos taken before the Mann Gulch Fire, some immediately after, and some twenty years later. The post-fire photos clearly show pine trees killed by the fire. The pictures from 1969 show no living trees. Maclean had this to say after he visited the site in the 1980?s:

Now, almost forty years later, small trees have just started to grow along the bottoms of dry finger gulches on the hillside in Mann Gulch, where moisture from rain and snow are retained underground. Since even now these little evergreens are only six to eight inches high, the grass has to be parted to find them?

This summer, 58 years later, Mann Gulch burned again (see here). Whatever tiny trees had survived from the 1980?s were fried. What was once forested is now de-treed permanently. The canyon adjacent to Mann Gulch, Meriwether Canyon, was not burned in 1949 but did burn this summer. The dense thicket of ponderosa pine and Douglas-fir cooked completely, as if Meriwether Canyon had been a giant pottery kiln.

Meriwether Canyon will not recover to be forest again, any more than Mann Gulch did. Nor will the areas burned this summer along the Rocky Mountain Front. Nor will the 1,200 square mile region of the Idaho Batholith roasted this summer by catastrophic forest fires. Nor will the 500,000 acre Biscuit Burn in Southwest Oregon. Nor will the bulk of the former Kaibab ponderosa pine forest. Nor will the Deschutes, Okanogan, Las Padres, or a dozen other National Forests visited by megafires in recent years.

Those forests have been eliminated and replaced by fire-type brush. The idea that our forests arose from catastrophic ?stand-replacing? fires is not true. They didn?t arise in that manner, certainly not the forests with (or that had) old-growth trees in them. Old-growth trees can be found across the entire West. Forests with old trees didn?t arise from catastrophic 100-percent-mortality fires. They couldn?t have. The evidence of Mann Gulch and other modern burns is plain to see.

Despite the obvious and clear evidence, the old myths persist. Many people feel a desperate need to perpetuate fanciful tales of forest development based on doofy pseudo-ecology. We offer, for example, this piece of pro-fire cheerleading replete with happy talk that lacks scientific merit (here).

Life After Meriwether

By LARRY KLINE, Helena Independent Record Staff Writer - 08/19/07

? Some areas now are home to black trunks standing in a moonscape of ash and gaping root holes, their heat-deformed branches curled to the sky. The soil is topped with dead ashes. Streaks and circles of white are all that remain of logs or bushes incinerated by the heat.

But in some places just 50 yards separate these apocalyptic scenes from living trees and flowering brush. The soil is dark and able to support new life. Living roots still can be found beneath black stubs of burnt scrub grass.

Some spots already are home to fresh green shoots.

This mosaic is exactly what forest managers expect after this sort of fire.

Fuel buildups in high elevations mean fires there, though infrequent, typically replace whole stands of Douglas fir.

?It?s pretty impressive how much stand replacement occurred with that fire,? Helena National Forest ecologist Lois Olsen said. She?s working on the incident management team, and recently flew over the burned areas.

?There are large patches that don?t have any living trees in them right now,? she said. Other areas are still green, she added.

?I don?t know that this is anything that you would consider abnormal,? Olsen said.

Much of the interior of the area is dominated by Douglas fir, with ponderosa pine taking over in the lower elevations at the edge of the wilderness.

Under what forest managers call a ?natural fire regime,? frequent, variable-intensity burns will leave open stands of mature ponderosa pine. The fires leave gaps in stands of Douglas fir.

The forest was ponderosa pine, open and park-like and maintained by frequent, regular, seasonal anthropogenic fire. After the Indian residents were murdered or moved, Douglas-fir invaded, as well as a thicket of young ponderosas.

The reporter had that backwards. He said the pine was ?taking over? in the lower elevations. In fact, the pine is (was) dying out, being replaced by Douglas-fir in the absence of tending, human-set fire. The gosh darn twaddle about ?natural fire regimes? is historically, ecologically, and factually inaccurate, and so egregiously so that one hopes someone else would please hit that moron with a shovel.

First the journalist (there?s a thinly-veiled insult) said fires typically replace whole stands, then he said they leave open stands of ponderosa pine. Which is it? Can?t be both. We get cognitive dissonance syndrome from reading jabber like that. It causes us to pick up our shovel and take some practice swings.

The reporter called the burn a ?mosaic,? but the USFS ecologist called the 100-percent-mortality area ?pretty impressive? and referred to the burn as ?stand replacement?. We don?t think the reporter had a freaking clue, however, so we cannot rely on his quoting of anybody and have never spoken to Lois Olsen ourselves. We do believe the reporter, however, when he said he witnessed grass and weeds sprouting. That is reasonable. He did not and will not see any trees growing there again though, of that we are sure.

Meriwether Canyon has been roasted and its forest eliminated. Go take a look, without a journalist to interpret things for you. Catastrophic fires in thicket-type forests eliminate forests and replace them with something else.

Our forests are being extincted, not rejuvenated. That?s the bottom line and the reality of the situation."

I now know why you left the west, though, you couldn't hack it.


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Liberty
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Re: Hellbender [Re: Liberty]
      #120266 - 10/12/07 01:20 AM

and from another source, Hellbender, you really should read this, being that you are an idiot and all...

from the Protecting Communities and Saving Our Forests: Solving the Wildfire Crisis Through Restoration Forestry
by Thomas M. Bonnicksen Ph.D. (by the way you can download the book for free)

"How Did It Get So Bad?

It has taken a combination of several factors to create the
dangerous, unnatural conditions that now dominate California?s forests. Misinformation and widely held misconceptions about forests have played a role, as have well-intended policies that had unintended consequences.

The myth of the pristine forest

The vision of pristine, untouched presettlement forests may be alluring, but in reality, forests have been managed
for at least 12,000 years. The California forests European explorers discovered in the 1800s were neither pristine nor untouched.

They were, however, beautiful and far more open and diverse than today?s forests.
The vision of pristine forests many people hold ? babbling brooks flowing through majestic tall trees and grassy
meadows with deer and other wildlife in abundance ? are typically images of carefully managed forests. Natural
forests to be sure, but forests nonetheless shaped by native people and other influences.

Other mythical pristine forests ? dark, mysterious places with huge trees, mosscovered logs under foot and chattering wildlife in tree canopies high overhead ? are fleeting
glimpses of reality at best. Some such patches historically
dotted the land much like today?s old-growth forests do, but they were relatively few and far from permanent. Fires may have passed by them for a while, but eventually they burned. Forests are dynamic ? once they reach maturity, their next step is to become young again, usually at the hand of a fire.

Fire has played a significant role in developing California?s forests for thousands of years. However, because California?s historic forests were so different from the dense forests we see today, fires burned differently then.

Fire versus FIRE
The fires that were a natural part of California?s historic landscape cleared the forest floor of debris and small
trees. The difference between the fires that historically shaped California?s forests and the blazes that ravage
thousands of acres at a time today is mostly a matter of degrees.
Historically, forest fires were generally low-intensity affairs. Fires might cover large areas, but flames stayed close to the ground with relatively modest temperatures.

PAY PARTICULAR CLOSE ATTENTION HERE HELLBENDER AND OTHER IDIOTS

Today?s infernos sometimes tower above the ground and reach 3,000?F, hot enough to melt metal. They can travel 20 miles in a day and sterilize soils.

In the low to moderate-intensity fires that historically dominated the interior West, animals could generally avoid
the immediate effect of flames.

The high-intensity blazes that have become more common recently have a greater impact on wildlife. It?s harder
to get away. Fish die in boiling streams. While fire is a natural part of most American forests, catastrophic blazes
were rare historically. For centuries, fire shaped California?s forestland in a benign cycle ? frequent low-intensity fires cleared the understory and kept
the forest open, which guarded against mega fires. Today?s high-intensity crown fires, however, often leave in
their wake devastated moonscapes of dead trees and baked, eroding soils."

YOU CAN READ THE REST HERE http://www.calforestfoundation.org/pdf/Saving_Forest_Book.pdf


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Liberty
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Re: Hellbender [Re: Liberty]
      #120267 - 10/12/07 01:22 AM

let's see you argue all that, of course you will pick and choose and take things out of context rather than realize you're an ignorant jackass who when he lived in the west had no damn clue what was happening around him and since you have moved from the west you refuse to realize the chit got much worse in the last few years

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Re: Hellbender [Re: Liberty]
      #120268 - 10/12/07 01:42 AM

just drive home a point I've been making all along and it further proves Hellbender is nothing more than a liberal pawning himself off as a conservative

"Fuel loads, weather conditions and landscape topography all influence fire behavior. For instance, fire usually moves
faster uphill. During the 2003 Southern California firestorm, however, fuel loads were so extreme that firefighters reported witnessing fires race downhill
as fast they moved uphill.

PAY SPECIAL ATTENTION HERE HELLBENDER IF WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING IS STUPID THEN EVERYONE IN THE WEST WHO ISN'T A MEMBER OF SOME WHACKO ENVIRO GROUP IS JUST AS STUPID

Unlike weather and topography, we can control fuel loads. We can reduce fuel loads and improve overall forest health.
Much like a master gardener will prune roses, fight aphids and slugs, and pull weeds, foresters can remove excess fuels
and create conditions that benefit trees and wildlife.
We are still feeling the effects of aggressive 20th century fire suppression. Deliberately set fires, or ?prescribed
burns,? can be an effective forest management
tool, but many public forests that surround communities are
too dangerous and overgrown with trees and debris to safely reintroduce fire without first harvesting some trees to
reduce fuel loads.
However, public sentiment toward forest management has swung toward preservation ? leave the forest alone, keep it exactly like it is and let nature take its course. More often than not, efforts to manage California?s forests
and reduce fuel loads are blocked by appeals and lawsuits ? despite the fact that humans have allowed unnatural
fuel loads to accumulate. The forests we would leave to nature are not natural, so the fires that burn them are not
natural either.
Such ?hands-off? attitudes, often inspired by the myth of the pristine forest, lead to inaction that fosters the
kind of catastrophic fire that can erase forests from the landscape for centuries. While court cases drag on, trees keep growing and forests get more crowded. Tinderbox conditions are spreading throughout California?s forests.
By doing nothing in our forests, we are doing something ? creating conditions that are far more conducive to unnatural, devastating crown fires than natural
low-level surface flames."

as usual, I provide evidence and you provide nothing but ignorance


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Re: Hellbender [Re: Liberty]
      #120324 - 10/12/07 12:30 PM

come on Hellbender post up some sort of defense, there are literally thousands of whack lib organizations that think exactly like you and have already formulated your bullchit argument for you, just go copy and paste, hell go get some crap from the forest service they love arguing that the best thing for the forests is that they are incinerated in gigantic firestorms

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Re: Hellbender [Re: Liberty]
      #120327 - 10/12/07 12:39 PM

Idiot

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Re: Hellbender [Re: Hellbender]
      #120343 - 10/12/07 01:33 PM

I knew you would have nothing, considering you've had nothing all along.

damn liberal


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Re: Hellbender [Re: Liberty]
      #120352 - 10/12/07 02:00 PM

No I'm not going to spend a lot time cutting and pasting bullchit. The fact that you don't have the capacity to respond, without pasting the blog of some tree hugging liberal, doesn't mean I'm going to lower myself to your mentality.

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Re: Hellbender [Re: Hellbender]
      #120355 - 10/12/07 02:12 PM

"tree hugging liberal"--Hellbender

uhh you apparently can't read. The dude wants the trees cut, the forests thinned rather than watching them be erased forever by catastrophic fire

he advocates private ownership and local control

I'm sorry but those aren't liberal stances, jackass


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Re: Hellbender [Re: Liberty]
      #120356 - 10/12/07 02:13 PM

"No I'm not going to spend a lot time cutting and pasting bullchit."--Hellbender

that's exactly what it would be if you were to cut and paste the volumes of envirowhacko crap that agrees with you


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Re: Hellbender [Re: Liberty]
      #120383 - 10/12/07 04:47 PM

Quote:

uhh you apparently can't read.




I quit reading your cut and paste when Elk started chasing Beavers out of Yellowstone, and you said everyone should ignore that, but accept everything else.

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Re: Hellbender [Re: Hellbender]
      #120406 - 10/12/07 07:53 PM

that's funny I only read your crap so I can laugh at a man who says he's conservative and is a liberal and says he knows about the forest but clearly lived in a desert

still doesn't change the facts you are too afraid to confront


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Re: Hellbender [Re: Liberty]
      #120412 - 10/12/07 08:34 PM

Quote:

as to your centrist's view, a centrist would realize that the forest service can't take care of the land it has, in that case a centrist would realize that some of that land needs new owners.

You are no centrist and simply support the liberal view





Lib if anyone leans liberal its you. How else would think that anyone can control and groom millions of acres of trees not created by man, and not subject to mans laws.
You just try to distract with your cut and paste.
Hillbilly's right, you're a Firestorm of bullchit. We need to give you to the county that you have so much faith in, maybe they can cure you.

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Re: Hellbender [Re: Hellbender]
      #120413 - 10/12/07 08:42 PM

Quote:

Today?s infernos sometimes tower above the ground and reach 3,000?F, hot enough to melt metal.
"That happens to be true"




So who measured these temps Liberty?
Hillbilly, I can't agree with the Firestorm label, given the burning temperature we're dealing with here I think "Rosie" might be more appropriate.

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Re: Hellbender [Re: Hellbender]
      #120424 - 10/13/07 12:20 AM

measuring the temperature of a fire isn't hard jackass, if you knew anything about forest fires you'd know that the fire behavior people involved on the incident management team are using thermal imaging to determine where the hottest spots in the fire are.

as to your continued labeling me a liberal

that's completely asinine as I am for private ownership and you want to prolong the failed bureaucracy anyone who honestly reads this knows this, but I don't suspect many of you know your ass from a hole in the ground, then again you are in the Ozarks


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Re: Hellbender [Re: Liberty]
      #120433 - 10/13/07 02:21 AM

Forestry for Dummies
By Alan Caruba
www.MichNews.com
Jan 12, 2005

Recently, managers of the nation?s 155 national forests were granted more discretion to approve logging and other commercial projects without the lengthy environmental reviews previously required by the 1976 National Forest Management Act. To most people that might not qualify as front page news, but it should be.

The nation was saddled with all manner of environmental legislation during the 1970s and part of the payback has been literally catastrophic for many of the nation?s forests. There has also been a hidden cost for anyone using any kind of product involving or derived from wood.

The new rules brought the usual Greens screaming to anyone who would listen that, ?the president?s forest regulations are an early Christmas gift to the timber industry masquerading as a streamlining measure. So said Rodger Schlickeisen, president of Defenders of Wildlife. Mike Anderson of The Wilderness Society lamented that ?wildlife safeguards? would suffer. They are both not only wrong, but betray (1) the Green?s opposition to any kind of industry that serves public needs and (2) an indifference to the truth about what will really serve wildlife in those forests. The goal of environmental organizations is to insure that no humans ever use our forests for any reason.

George E. Gruell is a wildlife biologist and the author of ?Fire in Sierra Nevada Forests.? In July, in a commentary published in the Reno Gazette-Journal, Gruel wrote, ?With embers smoldering around Carson City, it?s a good time to look at what fuels today?s devastating fires and perhaps learn from history how to make our forests and communities safer.?

?Historically,? wrote Gruell, ?Sierra Nevada forests were less dense and more resistant to catastrophic fire,? noted the difference of just a hundred years. ?What we have today is an unnatural accumulation of forest fuels.? Why? Because Greens have conspired to make it illegal, difficult, and unprofitable to harvest timber from our national forests, although the law that established them made provision for that.

The Greens interference resulted in ?an unnatural accumulation of forest fuels.? Note the word ?unnatural.? Gruell wrote that, ?Nevada?s forests have experienced massive increases in tree cover resulting from human activities, particularly the suppression of natural fires.? And here?s the kicker! ?As a wildlife biologist, I know a large body of evidence strongly suggests that increasingly dense forests are detrimental to wildlife, including numerous songbirds, and mammals such as rabbits, squirrels, and deer.?

It?s useful to keep in mind that the federal government owns most of the landmass of Nevada and so the restrictions enacted by laws put forth by environmentalists literally turned Nevada into the poster child for bad forest management.

Donna Dekker-Robertson is a forest geneticist and an adjunct professor at American River College in Sacramento, California. That State has almost forty million forested acres. In an August issue of The Washington Times, she wrote that, ?the devastation goes beyond the unnatural (there?s that word again!) accumulation of forest fuels that trigger megafires across Florida, Colorado, Arizona, California and the Pacific Northwest.?

She noted that the US has a higher rate of wood product consumption than any other country in the world, about 2 cubic meters per person. That includes everything from paper plates and napkins, to newsprint, crayons, cosmetics, and charcoal for the barbecue. Despite this, compared to a mere 15 years ago, timber harvests in California were down more than 90% on public lands and 40% on private forest holdings. As a result, California imports an estimated 75% of the wood it consumes. If that just does not make any sense to you, you?re right.

By permitting the managed harvesting of timber in California, not only would the cost be reduced, the forests protected against massive fires, and the environment for wildlife enhanced, but that State and all others that must now import timber would not risk importing non-native pests that are responsible for Dutch Elm disease and chestnut blight infestations. These originate in Asia. There are ?at least 27 potentially dangerous pests that may be accidentally imported and thrive in our forests??

?Wood,? Ms. Dekker-Robertson reminds us, ?is the only entirely renewable and recyclable building material we have. Compared to other building materials, wood saves energy, produces the least greenhouse gases, causes the least water and air pollution, and yields the least solid waste.? Trees are so environmentally pure the power required to grow them comes entirely from the sun!

So why have so many major environmental organizations opposed the proper management of our national forests and made life for private forest owners so difficult? Why do they advocate restrictions that have caused, not just the loss of millions of acres of forest, the jobs generated by the timber industry, but the homes and other structures caught in the path of catastrophic fires?

As Gruell points out, ?Thinning could save lives, enhance critical wildlife habitat, and improve other resource values.?

These common sense reasons for good forest management run counter to the real goals of environmentalists, the destruction of the nation?s timber industry, the requirement for higher costs to build new homes for the nation?s growing population, and the further restrictions on public access to our national forests (and parks), one of the reasons Congress determined to save them in the first place.

Who are the real enemies of our natural forests and other resources? The Greens, the Greens, and the Greens.


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Re: Hellbender [Re: Liberty]
      #120467 - 10/13/07 03:15 PM

"Lib if anyone leans liberal its you."--Hellbender

I think this is hilarious and so does Thomas Sowell in his How to be a Good Liberal (I can't wait to see you attack Sowell as a liberal too) just an excerpt

"that the thinning of forests by lumber companies and forestry workers "destroys habitat," while burning them down in their entirety by allowing unhindered forest fires makes animals "thrive,"
that American corporations' drilling for oil in "environmentally sensitive" areas is bad, but paying billions of dollars to moslem countries for their oil is better,
that the entire earth is an "environmentally sensitive" area, so no development, drilling, or building of any kind is justifiable ANYwhere,
that limiting the supply of fur-bearing animal pelts will make their costs go up, but limiting the sources of gasoline and other petroleum products will not make their costs go up."



in what world is it again that I'm a liberal, you are such a forking jackass


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Re: Hellbender [Re: Liberty]
      #120479 - 10/13/07 05:47 PM

You got me Rosie, you're no doubt one of the best at Cut and Paste on here. Now if you could develop an original thought.................?

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Re: Hellbender [Re: Hellbender]
      #120480 - 10/13/07 05:52 PM

Quote:


Myth #3: Today?s forests are natural forests. Research and photographic evidence show that California?s modern forests are vastly different from historic forests.




Which historic forest, who took the picture, who did the historic research? Was it the same guys doing the Global Warming "Historic Research"? Course if if it was you would buy it like it was a big lipped whore.

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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.


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Re: Hellbender [Re: Hellbender]
      #120493 - 10/13/07 09:09 PM

"You got me"--Hellbender

that's all you needed to say


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Re: Hellbender [Re: Liberty]
      #120495 - 10/13/07 09:13 PM

"Which historic forest, who took the picture, who did the historic research?"--Hellbender

we've got photos of the forest for about as long as we've had photography circa 1840, and heavy volumes of it from the 1860s forward

and we know they are now thicker than they were, and we know why, but we won't do anything about it because of envirowhackos who have brainwashed you into believing foolish things that man can't take care of the land around him. How is it that Indians could take care of the land and fashion the forests that we later walked into and we can't with more people, more technology and more knowledge?


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